Friday, January 3, 2020

THIS ONE FOR MILT ET AL

We have all seen the devastation from the bush fires in Oz primarily in SA, VIC , NSW and QLD.    Last night we entertained Heather H and John N who are refugees from country Geelong in Victoria

They told the story of being not permitted, on pain of fine, from picking up tree fell from the bush surrounding their property all per courtesy of the Labor gummit of Victoria and their local Shire Council heavily influenced by the Greens.  

Apparently picking up tree fell would disturb the ecology.   Feekin tosh.

These environmental terrorists have blood on their hands.     

62 comments:

Johno said...

Also in NSW:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sydney-man-fined-40-000-for-chopping-down-74-trees-on-north-shore-20200102-p53oe7.html

Andrei said...

Life in the "free" world huh? Where you are not allowed to create a fire break around your own property in an ecology where the dominant vegetation has evolved to burn as part fire as part of its life cycle.

This is just too funny or it would be if it wasn't so serious...

Anonymous said...

There could be quite a backlash against the green establishment: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/01/01/jonova-aussie-abc-hiding-evidence-they-helped-climate-activists-campaign-against-controlled-burns/

I was able to call a friend just out of Nowra last night to see how they’re going. They were considering if they should evacuate whilst hoping the rain predicted for Sunday arrives.

Hopefully ScoMo has what it takes to sort out all the greenwash BS.

Paranormal

SHG said...

Geelong Council:

Councillors
11 Councillors elected in October 2017.

Bellarine - Stephanie Asher - Mayor
Bellarine - Jim Mason
Bellarine - Trent Sullivan
Brownbill - Eddy Kontelj
Brownbill - Sarah Mansfield
Brownbill - Peter Murrihy
Kardinia - Bruce Harwood
Kardinia - Pat Murnane
Kardinia - Ron Nelson
Windermere - Anthony Aitken
Windermere - Kylie Grzybek - Deputy Mayor

Which ones are the Greens responsible?

Vesta Hestia said...

Veteran, you write as though the law is directed against the behaviour Heather H and John N alone. It is applicable to all.

Tree fell provides habitat for much of the ecology of forest areas. The life that takes up residence in tree fell is then part of the food chain for other wildlife. The prohibitions became necessary because too many people were taking too much tree fell. And a lot of it was being used for illegal camp fires that sometimes got out of control.

Now I get that the Right in Australia wants to make capital from this tragedy to divert attention from their failures to properly plan and prepare. If anyone has "blood on their hands" it is the current NSW government that slashed funding to the Rural Fure Service, inhibiting its ability to do its job. And it is the current federal government, far too focused on "bennie bashing" to take the time to meet with current and former fire chiefs who wanted to warn of the coming dangers and offer ideas to mitigate disaster.

Yes, the Right in Australia think bushfire management is simple, just like Donald Trump, they blame the lack of people with brooms sweeping the forest floor.

Have you ever been close, I mean really close, to a raging Australian bushfire? Have you seen how it spreads? Do you know what "crowning" is? Have you seen the fireballs that explode above treetops, fed by the eucalyptus oil? Unless you have, then you are no better than an armchair General telling McArthur how to beat the Japanese.

No surprise, of course, that SubNormal drops in with his hero worship of Jo Nova, rather than listening to the people who know what they are talking about, the fire chiefs. They will tell you that the annual window to perform preventative burning is shrinking. They have less time to prepare. These fires raging in NSW began in November, a full two months earlier than we normally see fires on this scale.

Scott from Marketing decided he needed to be "seen to do something", so visited Cobargo, a town almost wiped from the map, only to find he met people who were feeling pretty raw and emotional.

"What about the money for our forgotten corner of NSW Mr Prime Minister," the woman said. "How come we only had four trucks to defend our town, cause our town doesn't have a lot of money but we have hearts of gold Mr Prime Minister."

While Cobargo was burning, Scott from Marketing was enjoying tea and scones on the manicured lawns of Kirribilli. Unlike Tony Abbott, no one expects Scott from Marketing to put on a firesuit and hold a hose, but we do expect him to be proactive. Apparently, he has now been so stirred into action, that he will call a meeting of the National Security Council some time next week. Mustn't be too hasty, mustn't interrupt holidays.

Yes, keep trying to blame your political opponents when it is those who hold the reigns of power who have been asleep at the wheel.

Victoria's Daniel Andrews who went to war with the state's firefighters.

NSW's Gladys Bjrekilian, whose neo-liberal slash and burn economics gutted the Rural Fire Service.

And Scott from Marketing who was too busy cosying up to trump and the protector of a pedophile to take a meeting with fire chiefs who wanted to warn him that this firestorm was on the way.






Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Vesta

No doubt you are quoting Tim Flannelry's fraudulent coterie of retires fire chiefs.

Last time I looked a the figures for controlled burning of state government land they were devastating. From memory Western Australia was around 80% control burned and NSW was 8%.

Vesta Hestia said...

Pulling shit out of your arse, eh Adolf? The standard Right Wing playbook.

Last time I looked, the topography and vegetation of WA and NSW are vastly different. Where is WA's equivalent of the Snowy Mountains? Why is it that the vast majority of Australia's fires are clustered around The Great Dividing Range and not The Pilbara?

Facts, dear boy. Facts.

The Veteran said...

Vesta Hestia ... to answer your question ... yes I have. In the Dandenong Ranges ... and on my sisters farm in outback NSW and further, I helped clear tree fell from their property which has a lot of bush close to the house in quite hilly country ... probably against the law but with the nearest CFA outstation 16k away and limited water.

Your blathering on about disturbing the ecology leaves me cold.

Its people like you that my last para was directed at.

Andrei said...

Vest Eucalyptus trees have been designed by nature to burn - the bark is designed to flake and to scatter burning embers in the wind to propogate and spread fires. Eucalypts can even spontaneously combust to start the fires they need to prosper

This is a way for eucalypts to wipe out competing species and regenerate - it is what it is "nature red in tooth and claw"

Past generations being wiser and closer to nature to us understood this and immediately after winter when the ground was still wet conducted controlled burn offs to clear the areas around human habitations to create fire breaks to protect people and their property from the naturally occuring fires

Vesta Hestia said...



These are the people Adolf believes owe their careers to Tim Flannery. I am surprised he didn't also invoke George Soros, Bernie Sanders and Karl Marx.

Now, Adolf, other than reading The Australian's climate-denying articles (while the same paper touts its 1% Green credentials), just what is your expertise in planning and managing fire events?

Mary Barry
Former CEO, Victorian State Emergency Service

Neil Bibby AFSM
Former Chief Executive Officer, Country Fire Authority Victoria,
and former Deputy Chief Officer, Melbourne Metropolitan Fire Brigade

Tony Blanks AFSM
Former Fire Unit Manager, Tasmania National Parks,
and former Fire Manager, Forestry Tasmania

Mike Brown AM, AFSM
Former Chief Fire Officer, Tasmania Fire Service

Naomi Brown
Former CEO, Australasian Fire & Emergency Service Authorities Council


Bob Conroy
Former Fire Manager,
NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service


Major General Peter Dunn AO (Ret)
Former Commissioner,
ACT Emergency Services Authority

John Gledhill AFSM
Former Chief Fire Officer, Tasmania Fire Service

Dr Jeff Godfredson AFSM
Former Chief Fire Officer,
Melbourne Metropolitan Fire Brigade

Dr Wayne Gregson APM
Former Commissioner,
WA Dept of Fire & Emergency Services


Craig Hynes AFSM
Former Chief Operations Officer,
WA Fire and Emergency Services Authority

Lee Johnson AFSM
Former Commissioner Qld Fire & Emergency Services.
Director: Bushfire & Natural Hazards Cooperative Research Centre

Murray Kear AFSM
Former Commissioner,
NSW State Emergency Service

Craig Lapsley PSM
Former Emergency Management Commissioner and Fire Services Commissioner, Victoria, former Deputy Chief Officer, Country Fire Authority Victoria


Andrew Lawson AFSM
Former Deputy Chief Officer, SA Country Fire Service


Grant Lupton AFSM
Former Chief Fire Officer,
South Australian Metropolitan Fire Service


Greg Mullins AO, AFSM
Former Commissioner Fire & Rescue NSW. Climate Councillor


Frank Pagano AFSM, ESM
Former Executive Director, Emergency Management Queensland,
and former Deputy Commissioner, Queensland Fire & Rescue Service


Steve Rothwell AFSM
Former Director and Chief Fire Officer, NT Fire & Emergency Services

Stephen Sutton
Former Chief Fire Control Officer, Bushfires NT


Ken Thompson AFSM
Former Deputy Commissioner, Fire & Rescue NSW

Ewan Waller AFSM
Former Chief Fire Officer, Forest Fire Management, Victoria



Vesta Hestia said...

Andrei, which "past generations" would they be?

Those who fought and died on "Black Sunday" in Victoria, Feb - Mar 1926?

Or was it the original "Black Friday", Victoria Jan 1939?

Perhaps you were thinking back to Tasmania, Black Tuesday, Feb 1967?

Maybe Victoria suffered again between Dec 22 1943 and Feb 15 1944 where a mere 51 lost their lives, probably because those who should have "swept the forest floors" were occupied elsewhere.

Just which "past generations" are you talking about?

RosscoWlg said...

VH so it's all down to the poor state of the fire services in these states if I read you right.?

Anonymous said...

Vesta, some people will do anything to deflect from finding solutions to problems that may cause them minor discomfit.

For example, Andrei claims "Eucalypts can even spontaneously combust to start the fires they need to prosper"

That would appear to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how eucalypts and fires work. Distilled Eucalyptus oil has a flash point of 49C. Where Andrei is confused is that Eucalyptus release vapour in high heat, this vapour creates a haze, it is why The Blue Mountains have that name, from the vapour haze. The vapour haze does not combust spontaneously, but when an ignition source arrives, it can create a fireball that cen leap 1000.s of metres, igniting further treetops, and creating its own weather environment.

RosscoWlg said...

So this disaster is all down to the poor state of the fire services in these states or have I got that wrong.?
Most of whom are volunteers?

The Veteran said...

RW ... in VIC the Labor Premier, Daniel Andrews, gutted the CFA after being lent on by heavies in the United Fire Fighters Unions (representing the majority of Metropolitan Fire Brigade members) to form Fire Rescue Victoria.

The move was opposed by CFA volunters and their representative organisation Volunteers Fire Brigades Victoria along with former fire chiefs, former ALP premiers, the former Labor Party Minister for Emergency Services and the lead QC of the 2009 Victorian Bushfire Royal Commission.

And the result ... today

Anonymous said...

Vesta, sounds like you need to some perspective on Climate Change.

Here’s some sanity for you: https://judithcurry.com/2019/12/14/the-toxic-rhetoric-of-climate-change/

But then again it sounds like you’re sucking down the Gaia coolaid for all you’re worth.

Paranormal

Vesta Hestia said...

Veteran, did you skip over the above where I wrote

Yes, keep trying to blame your political opponents when it is those who hold the reigns of power who have been asleep at the wheel.

Victoria's Daniel Andrews who went to war with the state's firefighters.
?

Noted that you are happy to have a go at Andrews, but not a word about Gladys Berejiklian who gutted the funding for the RFS.

I believe in blame where blame is due, not in being a partisan hack.

Andrei said...

Vesta Hestia - you mean global warming isn't reposible for these fires but they have been actually happening forever?

Well I never...

BTW tell your sock puppet identity that the spontneous combustion of leaf litter is a well attested phenomina

Tom Hunter said...

Sorry to say that as part of my usual ignoring of Australia I had not been aware of how bad these fires were until the last few days. Having said that I'm surprised to hear that controlled burnoffs and removal of dead trees and such are not a thing in Australia?

Are the policies on this matter in the Australian park services and other ministries and departments involved with taking care of public bushland the same? Because if they are then they're completely at odds with scientific advice on the matter. The US National Park Service has acknowledged this:

When we see a wildfire, our first response is to put it out. For decades, the Forest Service has done just that when it came to wildland fires. But science has changed the way we think about wildland fire and the way we manage it. We still suppress fires, especially if they threaten people and communities, but we understand that fire has a role in nature – one that can lead to healthy ecosystems. So we look for ways to manage it to play its role, for instance, by igniting prescribed fires.

The more they fought the fires the bigger they got - because the amount of fuel for such fires steadily built up:

Just five years later, in what has become known as the "Big Blowup," a series of forest fires burned 3 million acres in Montana, Idaho, and Washington in only two days. The 1910 fires had a profound effect on national fire policy. Local and national Forest Service administrators emerged from the incident convinced that the devastation could have been prevented if only they had had enough men and equipment on hand.

Which sounds like the arguments advanced earlier in this thread about the CFA and such in Australia. Sadly I see that the U.S. Forest Service has not learned the lesson their Park Service has, and still has a zero-tolerance forest fire policy! Perhaps there are similar arguments between official bodies in Australia?

Anonymous said...

Meanwhile, Australia burns, while that ancient battle between left and right continues.
It's always bemusing how a new 'commentator' pops up out of nowhere,'knows everything' and will disappear without trace later.

In this day and age, it's possible to calculate the amount of fuel available for a fire and therefore reduce the risk, and limit the damage that could occur.

Oddball

Vesta Hestia said...

SubNormal, maybe you'd be so kind as to explain just why these fires are starting earlier, lasting longer, and are harder to control, let alone extinguish.

Then, you, Judith Curry, and Jo Nova can all pop down to the local RFS/CFS/CFA station and give them the benefit our your collective ignorance.

Vesta Hestia said...

Andrei, the spontneous combustion of leaf litter is a well attested phenomina is quite a back down from Eucalypts can even spontaneously combust to start the fires they need to prosper.

Science, eh?

Vesta Hestia - you mean global warming isn't reposible for these fires but they have been actually happening forever?

The Andrew Bolt argument from "It happened before".

Maybe you hadn't noticed, but fires such as those I referred to above in Victoria and Tasmania were mainly fought by men with wet hessian sacks and knapsack sprayers. They did not have the benefit of 4WD fire trucks, aerial water bombing, almost instantaneous communication. And yet, with all our modern technology, we cannot control these fires. Just how much worse would they be with only wet hessian and knapsack sprayers as weapons?

Yes, we always had fires in the past, but these are exhibiting new, far more dangerous behaviour. What do you suggest has driven the change?

Anonymous said...

Vesta, you are showing your ignorance when you allege AGW, or whatever your latest name for what is in effect political control, is responsible for what is a naturally occurring phenomenon.

Australia has always been a land of drought. One of the combination of factors that are underlying causes of these fires is the ongoing drought. You claim it is AGW causing the fires, the real fact is we just don’t know. To claim with such certainty it is AGW shows the true ignorance of someone with a closed mind. A closed mind is the most dangerous thing for scientific inquiry.

Perhaps you might like to join me at the local Fire station. Lets see who those in the front line of fighting the results of your misguided ‘Green’ advocacy take issue with.

Paranormal

Vesta Hestia said...

Subnormal, I challenge you to find anywhere above where I claim it is AGW causing the fires.

You then go on to confidently state, with regard to the cause of the fires, the real fact is we just don’t know. Closed mind or hive mind?

The fact is that we do know the cause of almost all these fires. Lightning. Arson. Unauthorised fireworks. Back burning that escaped control lines. Live firing by the ADF. Discarded cigarettes. Sparks from angle grinders, etc. Sparks from train brakes. Falling power lines. in other words, The majority of bushfires are started either intentionally or unintentionally by people. None of that is in dispute. Nobody that I know of is claiming AGW is the ignition source for these fires.

But it is undeniable that these fires are burning fiercer, longer, and almost impossible to control. And that is due to the changing climate.

Vesta Hestia said...

And, I will leave you now with a final word to SubNormal, Andrei, The Veteran, et al, who complain that "greenies" won't let preventive fires happen in the off season.

The voice of Shane Fitzsimmons wavers as the Rural Fire Service chief describes the day he learned of his father's terrible death. Nine years ago, George Fitzsimmons, 52, perished while leading a routine hazard reduction burn that also killed three colleagues.

https://www.smh.com.au/environment/in-his-fathers-image-20091002-ggiv.html

it isn't as easy as your simplistic minds would have it.

Anonymous said...

For a more ambidextrous view of Australia's challenge of living with fire and flood, I commend "The Bush" by Don Watson. Born and bred in the Gippsland high country from a line of pioneer farmers who 'broke the bush in', he writes well how the bush was and is now; from Aboriginal preventive burning through the frontier mentality to the current ideological mindsets.
Written in 2014, the last chapter is "Waiting for the Fire"
He only had to fill in time for five years to see it happen.

Mick

Anonymous said...

That accident happened 19 years ago and was eventually blamed on an inaccurate map.
Time and technology has changed (you would only need to actually read the article to realise that).

"The fact is that we do know the cause of almost all these fires. Lightning. Arson. Unauthorised fireworks. Back burning that escaped control lines. Live firing by the ADF. Discarded cigarettes. Sparks from angle grinders, etc. Sparks from train brakes. Falling power lines. in other words, The majority of bushfires are started either intentionally or unintentionally by people. None of that is in dispute. Nobody that I know of is claiming AGW is the ignition source for these fires."

Gosh , I guess they never had fires before those nasty white fella's took over the country then...

Oddball

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

'Why is it that the vast majority of Australia's fires are clustered around The Great Dividing Range.....?

Because the WA government control burns the Darling range and escarpment but the brainless NSW and Vic governments don't control burn their hill country bush land.

'Nobody that I know of is claiming AGW is the ignition source for these fires.'

Weasel words. They are claiming AGW is the precursor for the fires.

Another dissembling bullshitting leftie.

Anonymous said...

Tom, in reference to an earlier post of yours, was that a ‘flounce’ from Vesta at 2:25?

Paranormal

The Veteran said...

VH ... just calling you out on your fib about the NST State government slashing the CFA budget. Clearly you are a mouthpiece for the NSW Opposition Leader whose claim has been well and truly rubbished by the ABC (that well known poodle of the Morrison government ... snort) in a fact checker article. Their verdict ... "Ms McKay's claim doesn't stack up".

But all this is noise designed to disassemble the point behind my post ... that in many local gummit jurisdictions property owners are actively discouraged, on pain of fine, from picking up tree fell from bush land surrounding their property in an attempt to mitigate the danger posed by bushfires. Not the complete answer of course but a sensible precaution nevertheless ... blocked by eco terrorists who seem to recruited you to their cause.

Psycho Milt said...

They told the story of being not permitted, on pain of fine, from picking up tree fell from the bush surrounding their property all per courtesy of the Labor gummit of Victoria and their local Shire Council heavily influenced by the Greens.

This is a common but completely bogus right-wing conspiracy theory, debunked here.

Hysterical, much? The Aus Green Party has its own page on the subject, to counter the bullshit propaganda. That page discusses the actual causes of less fire hazard reduction taking place, and also points out the reason this year's fire season is so much worse than usual:

Climate change means that bushfire season is starting earlier, that forests and grasslands are drier, igniting more easily and burn more readily, and that there are more and more days of very high, severe, extreme and catastrophic fire risk. The major cause of climate change is the mining, burning and exporting of coal, oil and gas.

So I guess it could be that some "environmental terrorists have blood on their hands," but the terrorists in question would be Murdoch's media empire and the various Lib/Nat donors who are calling the shots at federal government level.

The Veteran said...

Milt ... Heather and John will be fascinated that you call them right wing conspiracy theorists. Am I allowed to call the Greens left wing nut jobs then? I mean sitting in the cloistered confines of academia can lead to a certain disconnect from reality.

Snowflake said...

"Heather and John", ROFL. Salt of the earth Aussie battlers from Struggle Street no doubt. What are their qualifications in Forest management and fire prevention again? You'll forgive me if I call bullshit on your props, given your poor form with facts, "the Veteran".

Andrei said...

My Goodness the scales have fallen from my eyes that oracle of all human wisdom, the Australian Green party has spoken...

Meanwhile back in the real world where practical people live it is well known that Australia has always had bush fires and there is nothing new about them.

Practical people rather that ivory tower theorists who babble AGW try and work out ways of mitigating the impact of these events on human populations

Green party loonies think that new taxes will prevent future forest fires from ever happening again

Psycho Milt said...

... Heather and John will be fascinated that you call them right wing conspiracy theorists.

To be fair, it's your post that's peddling the right-wing conspiracy theory. It seems reasonable to assume though that your guests shared it, or why would you base the post on their comments?

I mean sitting in the cloistered confines of academia can lead to a certain disconnect from reality.

Have a read of your post again, particularly "These environmental terrorists have blood on their hands," and consider both how connected to reality that is, and how respectfully you expect others to respond to such malicious comments.

Also re "disconnection from reality," this:
Apparently picking up tree fell would disturb the ecology. Feekin tosh.

If you've discovered evidence that the biomass on the forest floor actually isn't an important part of the forest's ecology, the world's life scientists will be astonished. Please do publish your findings.

Snowflake said...

Andrei lives in a world where a murdering tyrant is a mighty alpha male hero because he rides a horsey with no shirt on, so there you go. Shit for brains much Andy?

Andrei said...

Fires are an important part of the forests ecology too Milt...

Nature is not always benign, in fact it usually isn't.


Psycho Milt said...

Oh for fuck's sake, I'm aware of how eucalyptus forests work.

The Veteran said...

Flake ... being Flake and adding nothing to the conversation.

Vesta Hestia said...

Andrei will do or say anything to divert attention from the fact that these fires are happening to real people, real people dying, being severely injured, losing everything they have had, but don't expect Andrei to lift a finger, don't expect Andrei to have to sacrifice anything at all in his cosy little life. After all, Andrei isn't on this planet for life, is he? he's here to fellate his god and go to heaven.

Veteran, "Ms McKay's claim doesn't stack up" on a very particular reading of what she said, and when she said it. That she was out by a small amount does not change the FACT that RFS funding was cut, and NSW Parks Service (the mob who do a lot of the preventative work) was gutted.

And just like your fellow traveller Andrei, you care far more about pointless point-scoring while people, real people, go up in flames. But that's OK, we know you're a "destroy the village to save the village" type of old sod.

Shut up, sit down, pass the port and tomorrow you can regale us with more tales of the heroic freedom fighters Heather H and John N. I have no doubt Australia will be all the richer for their absence.

Andrei said...

"Oh for fuck's sake, I'm aware of how eucalyptus forests work."

Well then you shouldn't be blaming AGW for what is an ancient process then...

And if you accept eucalyptus forests are by their very nature arsonists then you have to figure out how best to deal with the intersection of humans with eucalyptus forests because while fire is good for the forests it is not so good for the people who loose their homes and livilihoods to their fires

Psycho Milt said...

Well then you shouldn't be blaming AGW for what is an ancient process then...

Oh for fuck's sake again, no-one's claiming forest fires in Australia happen because AGW, and I'm getting tired of you implying that's a claim I've made. The actual claim is:

Climate change means that bushfire season is starting earlier, that forests and grasslands are drier, igniting more easily and burn more readily, and that there are more and more days of very high, severe, extreme and catastrophic fire risk.

Go and fight your crude straw men somewhere else.

RosscoWlg said...

Yeahup 98 people in Queensland are being dealt with by police for setting fires, 36 adults and 62 juveniles.

Meanwhile the statistics clearly prove that climate change is not a factor.. OZ has been hotter and drier many times since stats have been recorded.

Certainly many sources anecdotal and otherwise, indicate that Green policies have been a significant factor in this disaster.

500,000 mammals lost which makes those potential animals lost by controlled burn off potentially insignificant.

Makes a complete mockery of the Green policy to protect the fauna and flora in first place.!

RosscoWlg said...

Oops that should read 500,000,000 manuals destroyed or half a billion!!!!

The Veteran said...

VH ... caught out telling fibs and your response is to call some very decent people deplorables (hat-tip to Hillary). Look, I know you're hurting with your mob having lost the election they couldn't lose but when you resort to personal abuse you've lost the plot.

Back to their/my essential point Anyone who argues against the clearing of tree fell in areas prone to bushfires (meaning the whole of Oz except the rainforest areas and the bit in the middle) is both thick and stupid and stuck in an ideological straight-jacket colored Green which, in your case, fits perfectly.

Anonymous said...

Controlled burn off.? There speaks a lad who has no experience forest management but is anxious to blame shift and lets not forget the Veteran who has spent most of his adult life in the Fire service (I think) all trying to sound like they know what they are talking about.

If words were water the combined contribution from the Hunters, Paranormals and Veterans on this blog would have put them out a week ago.

When you tell me how you "control burn" an area the size of the UK with the limited and deliberately reduced resources we are battling with. That's the trouble with you little islanders, no idea of scale.

The word that sums it all up is drought, without the massive countrywide drought this would not have happened on this huge scale that overwhelmed different types of forest and microclimates.

I find the tenor of the Veterans post extremely offensive to both the people tasked with forest management and the Fire and Rescue services.

Grow up and get a life outside of a laptop

John Peterson (ex Aussie)
Colorado Division of Fire Prevention and Control

The Veteran said...

John being shrill ... just where do you get the idea I'm involved with the fire service? All I am advocating is the common sense proposal that people should be allowed to clear tree fell from the area adjacent to their property ... nothing more, nothing less.

How you could possibly think that could be construed as being offensive to those tasked with forest management and the Fire and Rescue services has me stumped ... read my feekin post John, read my post.

Andrei said...

No you misunderstand John;

It is not really possible to control large scale fires in Australia, California. Siberia,the Amazon and other places where they occur and probably not wise to even attempt to do so, truth be known

What the question is
is how do we best protect inhabited areas that lie within potential fire zones from these wild fires which are an integral part of the lifecycle of these types of forest.

And that is what the issue is - people living within these zones have not been permitted to clear the areas around their homes of flammable vegetation and in some cases have been prosecuted for doing so.

Where there are known natural hazards you work out ways to mitigate their impact on people - like the sea wall in Galveston which has protected the city from Storm surges for over 100 years. It was built after 10,000+ people died in a hurricane back in 1900

This is what Australians need to do with the fire hazard and one obvious first step is to clear vegetation around peoples homes and its not like this is new knowledge...

Anonymous said...

Crazy answers to a major problem. Clearing underbrush out to 200 metres around towns is labour intensive and expensive. In a fire storm situation a fire can leap 100 metres before you can blink.

And everybody is tippy toeing around the major point Climate induced drought.

Large parts of New South Wales have been in the grip of catastrophic fire weather this week as firefighters desperately work to save homes, properties and lives.

But as firefighters try and beat back the bushfires, a familiar blame game began with critics pointing fingers at “greenies”, claiming they get in the way of hazard reduction efforts that might have reduced the size and scale of the disaster.

“These are very tired and very old conspiracy theories that get a run after most major fires,” says Prof Ross Bradstock, the director of the centre for environmental risk management of bushfires at the University of Wollongong, who has been researching bushfires for 40 years.

“They’ve been extensively dealt with in many inquiries.”
How you can donate and help with the NSW and Queensland bushfires
Read more
So what are the claims?

The chief accuser is Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce who says “greens policy” gets in the way “of many of the practicalities of fighting a fire and managing it”.

Among Joyce’s claims, made in several interviews this week, are that Greens policies have made hazard reduction activities more difficult.

This claim, just to be clear, is about the policies of a party that has never been in government.

Joyce also blamed the Greens for “paperwork” that made it harder to carry out hazard reduction activities.

“It’s not burning because they burnt off, it’s burning because they didn’t burn off,” Joyce told SkyNews.

According to Bradstock, Joyce’s claims are familiar but “without foundation.”

“It’s simply conspiracy stuff. It’s an obvious attempt to deflect the conversation away from climate change.”

A former NSW fire and rescue commissioner, Greg Mullins, has written this week that the hotter and drier conditions, and the higher fire danger ratings, were preventing agencies from carrying out prescribed burning.

He said: “Blaming ‘greenies’ for stopping these important measures is a familiar, populist, but basically untrue claim.”

Petri Dish

Psycho Milt said...

Meanwhile the statistics clearly prove that climate change is not a factor..

The only thing "proven" in your comment is that the ignorant don't understand statistics and are therefore easy prey for statistics-based propaganda from malicious actors.

Psycho Milt said...

And that is what the issue is - people living within these zones have not been permitted to clear the areas around their homes of flammable vegetation and in some cases have been prosecuted for doing so.

So, now you're lecturing Australian firefighters on how they lack your engineer's precision understanding of Australian bushfires? It would be funny if it wasn't about something that's killing people.

Anonymous said...

"Crazy answers to a major problem. Clearing underbrush out to 200 metres around towns is labour intensive and expensive. In a fire storm situation a fire can leap 100 metres before you can blink."

Nowhere near as expensive as rebuilding a town
The original post is about restricting homeowner's ability to remove clear fell from there own property, for which they are happy to do for free.

I'm not aware of how house insurance works in OZ, as I never owned property there.
This fire, and the lack of preventative measures wont be helping to keep the premiums down.

The rest of Petri Dish's comment is cut & pasted from somewhere else, and has already been dealt with.

Oddball

Anonymous said...

@oddball, has it? where? You must be a little islander.

Anonymous said...

Swing & miss

Oddball

Andrei said...

"So, now you're lecturing Australian firefighters on how they lack your engineer's precision understanding of Australian bushfires? "

I am not lecturing Australian firefighters on anything and they are not the people who make the laws and bylaws regarding the felling of trees and the clearing of scrub. They are in fact the people who get to deal with the consequences of the poor political decisions of policy makers...

There have been several stories of people living in devasted neighbourhoods who have managed to their own homes by damping down their houses and extinguishing the fires as they break out - which is possible if there is a large enough clear area around their dwelling.

You can mock my " engineer's precision" but it is my job to understand what environmental conditions or natural hazards any machinery or structure could encounter during its working life and what needs to be done to mitigate the risks these pose. When bridges don't wash away in floods and highway overpasses don't collapse in earthquakes you don't give the matter a second thought. It is only if they fail you notice...

Houses built in Wellington you need to think about Earthquakes, houses built of the Gulf Coast you need to think about hurricanes, houses built on the banks of the lower Mississippi you need to think about floods and houses built in NSW you need to think about bush fires. it aint rocket science

Anonymous said...

Idiot comment Andrie.

Housing is about affordabilty and location. I can't quite afford a house that meets your idiot requirements.

Mick

Disposable User Name said...

Oddball, are you a deliberate liar to support your anti-science stance, or just to dumb to comprehend what The Veteran wrote.

You wrote The original post is about restricting homeowner's ability to remove clear fell from there own property, for which they are happy to do for free.

What The Veteran actually wrote

They told the story of being not permitted, on pain of fine, from picking up tree fell from the bush surrounding their property

Emphasis added to help you get a grip.



Anonymous said...

Is that really the best you can come up with?

Oddball

Disposable User Name said...

Sorry, oddball. Do you find truth offensive?

Quite simply, my country is on fire. It looks as though almost everything on Kangaroo Island, Australia's third-largest island, is being destroyed, and arrogant, no nothing arseholes are whingeing about not being able to pick up a few twigs.

The major fires in NSW and Vic look like they are about to combine into one massive firestorm, obliterating anything in its path. We have no idea yet of the death toll, but you'd don't give a flying fuck for the dead or dying, you are pissed off that you have been denied your right to tell foreigners how to manage their land.

Disposable User Name said...

Andrei

And that is what the issue is - people living within these zones have not been permitted to clear the areas around their homes of flammable vegetation and in some cases have been prosecuted for doing so.

Apply your engineering skills to human stupidity.

Listen to this clip of Radio Journalist and volunteer firefighter describing how his own home, and the whole street, was destroyed in the Ash Wednesday Bushfires of 1983. Nicoll won a Walkley Award for this report.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYSBI5azgBA

Now, look at Yarrabee Rd, Greenhill from a recent satellite image, and tell me who is at fault for the trees overhanging roofs.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Yarrabee+Rd,+Greenhill+SA+5140/@-34.9499728,138.6914134,231m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x6ab0cb63a13d1e4f:0x3e1a26674661339b!8m2!3d-34.9497411!4d138.6899967

Anonymous said...

Semantics again.

PS I lived in OZ several years ago in an area that has currently advised tourists to leave the area.
The people I know from those days certainly aren't as concerned as you are.

As for 'caring', unless your on the ground doing something useful or donating funds etc, it's just virtue signalling.

As for been 'denied' having a say about how OZ is run, you have me mistaken for some SJW.
It ain't my country, and ultimately it's not my problem.
You should be sweet with the above sentence, as I found it to be a very typical Australian attitude

Oddball

Anonymous said...

PPS

My old home town has now become a place to evacuate to, and it's now not possible to leave the area.
There's no accurate fire map at this point as they cant get aircraft into the air, because of a lack of visibility.
Most of our old friends have contingency plans in place if the situation worsens.

Oddball