Wednesday, February 6, 2019

ON VENEZUELA

So the list of countries recognising Juan Guaido as the interim President of Venezuela continues to grow to now include virtually every western democracy along with five Latin American countries.

Meanwhile little ole New Zealand continues to stand shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and Syria in continuing to support Maduro's the killer regime.

Isn't it great that we have an 'independent' foreign policy ... not so great that we prefer a broken meme (that we never interfere in the internal politics of another country) over taking a moral stand.

Didn't seem to bother successive governments when it came to South Africa.

65 comments:

David said...

FFS, Veteran.

Which New Zealand governments recognised the South African opposition as the legitimate government.

The US has a long history of overthrowing South American governments that do not do its bidding.

Why Venezuela and not China? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? The Philippines? Burma? Zimbabwe?

Why are you so quick to jump on the "Let's invade " bandwagon?

I am reminded of the words of South American liberator Simon Bolivar that the US appeared destined to plague Latin America with misery in the name of liberty.

Che Guevara also noted that no social reform could be possible in Latin America under a democratic structure because the US and the CIA would take advantage of the openness of that democratic structure to undermine the reforms and overthrow the governments.

The Americans refuse to learn their lessons of history. Trump squawks about a "Caravan of criminals", when the reality is that so many are refugees from Honduras. Recall the coup that Hilary Clinton supported that has left Honduras a shambles. Maybe instead of fucking over Venezuela the US could repair the damage it caused in Honduras first.

The Veteran said...

David ... know your history before you debate with me. In 1985 the Kirk Government, recognising the repressive nature of the apartheid regime severed links with the South African government and closed the SA Consulate here. That was a moral judgement.

Clearly in your lexicon moral judgements on RW Governments are OK but all bets are off when it comes to dealing with a hard left socialist regime ... figures.

And just whose planning on invading Venezuela? Change has to come from within and it's the Venezuelan Army that holds the key. I commend to you the very good post in Kiwipolitico authored by Pueblo (aka Paul Buchanan) who is, by any measure, not a member of the GRWC.

David said...

In 1985 the Kirk Government, recognising the repressive nature of the apartheid regime severed links with the South African government and closed the SA Consulate here. That was a moral judgement.

That is not the same as anointing the leader of the opposition President. That is not the same as foreign governments knowing better that the electors who they choose. That is not the same as threatening military invasion.

Clearly in your lexicon moral judgements on RW Governments are OK but all bets are off when it comes to dealing with a hard left socialist regime ...

Why Venezuela and not China? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? The Philippines? Burma? Zimbabwe?

And just who's planning on invading Venezuela?

Donald Trump, John Bolton and Elliot Abrams for starters. US President Donald Trump says military intervention in Venezuela is "an option"

https://www.smh.com.au/world/south-america/trump-military-intervention-in-venezuela-an-option-russia-objects-20190204-p50vge.html

Change has to come from within ...

Then why the angst that NZ government hasn't piled on? Why has the US been undermining Venezuela for 17, that's seventeen, years? This didn't develop last week, it has been ongoing US actions to stifle nationalist governments everywhere.

...and it's the Venezuelan Army that holds the key.

We must differ, it is, or it would be, if other nations kept out, the people of Venezuela who hold the key. Venezuela does not need a military coup, another junta, another descent into American imposed madness.

Why are you so keen for New Zealand to respond to the puppet master? Pining for another war, are we?

Gerald said...

That sent the NZ political right into paroxysms of indignant fulmination, with politicians and commentators claiming that she supported Maduro, communism, evil-doers in general and people who kick their dogs. Not surprisingly, her ad-lib was followed shortly thereafter by a more measured comment by Foreign Minister Winston Peters that NZ does not choose between foreign political parties and contenders and prefers to allow them to settle differences on their own.

Kimbo said...

I'll debate history with you - it wasn't the Kirk government in 1985...it was the Lange government.

Also, "interfere" in the "internal politics" of apartheid-era South Africa?! Apart from joining consistent international condemnation of their policies, which isn't interference in their domestic affairs as such (and neither is closing or relocating an embassy for that matter), the only time I can recall we came anywhere close to that was in 1973. That was when Norman Kirk (PM from 1972-74) instructed the NZRFU to cancel the scheduled Springbok tour...because the South African rugby team would not be merit-selected, i.e., non-whites would not be considered...nor a non-Afrikaner captain contemplated. So we were also looking out for the interests millions of non-white South Africans, and Tommy Bedford. ;) Incidentally Bedford did play in NZ later that season as a member of an invitation team against the All Blacks.

Mind you South Africa had a consistent policy before 1970 of determining the personnel of visiting representative and other sports teams - just ask George Nepia, Johnny Smith and Basil D'Oliveira. And Kirk had an arguably just position that John Vorster's regime shouldn't be given an opportunity to practice and publicise their policies on NZ soil for some three months, at least not on Kirk's watch.

Noel said...

Current NZ Gummit supports the Lima Group in seeking a resolution.
https://www.france24.com/en/20190205-lima-group-warns-against-venezuela-military-intervention-guaido-maduro

Noel said...

Should have added stance hasn't change since this
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-zealand-expresses-concern-regarding-venezuelan-elections

Kimbo said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tom Hunter said...

Che Guevara also noted that no social reform could be possible in Latin America under a democratic structure because

Oh how super convenient for that blood-soaked piece of Communist shit, what with his ideas of "revolutionary justice", the exciting smell of smoke in his nostrils everytime he executed some poor SOB who wasn't shooting back, his hatred of gay men, and his fucked-in-the-head ideas about society, I'm sure he loved having an excuse not to have a democratic structure.

I'm glad he died at the hands of CIA-trained Bolivarian although I think bullets were wasted and being pushed out of a helicopter at altitude would have been more just.

Still, his corrupt, muderous boss Castro did die on Pinochet's birthday, so is there that.

Tom Hunter said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kimbo said...

@ tom hunter

Hey, I didn't give my permission to remove it! Was prepared to let it stay there as an obvious sign of my incompetence so the No Minister community could assess me and my thought processes with the contempt my actions deserved. That's how transparency works - the effect of sunlight! ;)

Plus how come you have that power/authority to delete it when this is The Veteran's thread. Waaaaaay too much power and not enough checks and balances. This place is eerily similar to Venezuela, no matter whom is in charge. ;)

Tom Hunter said...

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH..

The Veteran will probably deal with me later, but hey, easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. :)

Snowflake said...

Poor “Veteran” is so angry and confused he now insists that the government overthrow decades of settled policy for no reason other than he thinks shrieking like this is good for the Nats. Embarrassing, buddy, even for you.

Snowflake said...

And he’s ain’t shit up, about there being a Kirk government in 1985, and suggesting that introducing sanctions is equivalent to formally recognising a government. See what ADS does?

The Veteran said...

Kimbo ... thanks for putting me right about the Lange Government but apart from that you're dancing on the head of a pin with a certain selective morality.

I repeat ... isn't it grand we can stand with Russia, China, North Korea, Syria and Cuba against all those reactionary counties seeking to impose their will on Venezuela and Noel, suggest you read your links before posting ... the Lima Group recognised Guaido as representing the "legitimate government of Venezuela and vowed to "recognise and work with" his representatives in their respective countries ... and you say NZL supports that ... it will be news to WRP and St Jacinda.

The Veteran said...

Snowflake ... welcome back into the furnace ... you're melting and your selective morality ain't worth 'jack' to me and, what's more, I ain't your 'buddy'.

You quibble over South Africa ... what then do you say about our actions is repect of Fiji following the raft of coups there ... Lange even proposed military intervention by the SAS but backed off when he was told the Fiji military would probably win. But of course that wasn't interfering in their internal politics was it.

The meme you refer to is broken and it's time to recognise that but your Girl won't because her moral courage is limited by her socialist beliefs.

Andrei said...

Phooey Veteran - It is up to Veneuzuelan's yo figure out their future

What you want is for us to recognize a Quisling Venezuelan Government that willo sell out the average Venzuelan people's interests because when it comes down to it you still adjere to theb White Man's Burden imperilalistic world view

Venezuela is rich in oil and Gold and the world's elites wish to steal this for themselves rather than let the Venzuelan's use it to develop their own nation as they seem fit

This is the way imperial powers have operated forever - keep the locals poor and impoverished so they can loot their nations wealth unimpeded.

In the end if they don't hand over what the West wants they will bring in the bombers and trash everything as they did to Libya and Yugoslavia amongst many others

And you will go along with it because you buy into the bullshit you are being fed

David said...

Tom Hunter, Veteran once said you'd "lived in the US" a lot of your life. Seems it was too much of your life and you have absorbed their "you're with us or against us" beliefs. Che was a hero to those whom he helped liberate, unlike the slime from American who will attempt to subvert every democratic government.

Why was the government, democratically elected, of Guatemala overthrown? Because they wanted US business like United fruit Company to play fair. That will never do, how dare the people of a nation tell the all mighty US what to do!

Why is "Israel the only democracy in the middle east? It isn't, but anytime any other nation comes close to democracy, Israel and its American pawn ensures that never happens.

You disgust me with your callous attitude towards life and liberty.

I await your death so I Can piss on your grave.

David said...

Veteran, Why Venezuela and not China? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? The Philippines? Burma? Zimbabwe?

Tom Hunter said...

You disgust me with your callous attitude towards life and liberty.

Ahahahahahah - and "yawn". You can say that in the same comment where you fellate Che Guevara. Classic cognitive dissonance.

I await your death so I Can piss on your grave.
Oooooooo. Sounds positively Eastwoodian (thinking of the phone scene from In The Line of Fire). All that separates your fantasy from reality is a few thousand kilometres, fifteen years, and removing your urine collection bags.

Andrei said...

"I await your death so I Can piss on your grave"

That is charming David

You and I are on the same page over this matter but statments like that are not the way to get people to see things from our point of view, just the converse in fact

What we need to do is calmly and rationally as possible explain why we disagree with this post

Kimbo said...

@ The Veteran

Well, allow me to dance on that pinhead to which you arbitrarily what to relegate me a bit more: -

No one outside of a narrow Wellington Beltway cares about our current policy regarding Venezuela. Nor internationally too I'd wager.

The only reason it is an "issue" is because David Farrar was looking for clickbait from his usual JDS-addled regulars.

For all that this government has got wrong - and there is plenty - being "out-of-step" with the USA, the UK, Australia, whomever is not a problem as such, especially over something like this. We are a small independent nation who seeks to be an honest broker in the world, and one of the ways we do that is by being consistent with our principles-based approach. Which includes not recognising every new potential government in every (to quote the current POTUS) "third world shit-hole" just because "others" do. No matter how shitty the current regime is. Is often a better option than chaos.

Is the same approach that saw Helen Clark (wisely) keep us out of Gulf War II, initially. And I'd suggest her judgement, and not that of Bush II has proved right in hindsight, no matter how bad an disagreeable Saddam Hussein was. Doesn't mean we "approve" of the incumbent regime anywhere, but it does mean that we recognise them as the official government unless obvious events on the ground say otherwise. is the same attitude that saw Norman Kirk recognise the Peoples Republic of China, withdraw from the Vietnam War, and hesitate before recognising the Pinochet-led regime in Chile. Incidentally, and as others have pointed out, neither Kirk nor later Lange refused to recognise the incumbent South African governments.

Speaking of Kirk - he rightly said that for too long before he took office, British or US foreign policy was issued from Wellington with a Kiwi accent. Since 1972, or at least when Muldoon wasn't in charge later, we have sought to follow Kirk's multilateral, principles-based foreign policy. Which is a necessary thing for small nations such as ourselves. We may share interests and intelligence and defence ties with the likes of Australia and the USA (although why after the fall of Singapore in 1942 and their entry into Europe the Poms would expect anything from us other than derision and contempt). And It is indeed a rough and tough jungle out there where - yes - lots of ratbags don't respect principles and international law. Continued Israeli settlement of West Bank being one of them, albeit not the most egregious. But all the more reason we do our small bit to strengthen our preferred approach by staying consistent. That I would suggest is both "moral", "principled" and "practical".

That especially includes when the world's policeman adopts an unadulterated, selfish and bombastic "USA first" approach, and where they threaten that they are "taking the names" of those who are out of step with their decisions. All the more reason for us to stick to our guns, do what we can to maintain our "good friends" status with the USA, but also be free to give them, as we did over the nuclear issue in the 1980s and 1990s, a (friendly and diplomatic) "fuck you" if and when we decide to make our own foreign policy.

There may not be many areas in which Labour-led governments are better than the National Party alternative, and precious few with the Ardern administration....but foreign policy is usually one of them.

Psycho Milt said...

Meanwhile little ole New Zealand continues to stand shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba and Syria in continuing to support Maduro's the killer regime.

That is a straightforward propaganda lie. NZ does not support the Maduro regime, and instead stands shoulder to shoulder with the overwhelming majority of the world's countries in not picking a side in Venezuela's internal politics. Personally, I'm glad we have a government that sticks to NZ's long-term foreign policy rather than immediately clicking its heels and shouting "Jawohl mein Fuehrer" when the US government told them what to do - for that, we have National governments.

Isn't it great that we have an 'independent' foreign policy ...

This has nothing whatsoever to do with independent foreign policy. It has to do with NZ foreign policy followed by all NZ governments. You may have noticed the previous Nat government didn't recognise any opposition claimants to government in any previous conflicts either, for fairly obvious reasons.

Didn't seem to bother successive governments when it came to South Africa.

As David already pointed out, no NZ government recognised the SA opposition as government.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Milt, please help me out. (I don't consider South Africa a reasonable metaphor for Venezuela.
That simply is deflection.) How ever, when exactly did the NZ gummint recognise the 'opposition' as you call it, as government in South Africa? Was it before or after a satisfactory general election?

David said...

Adolf, you're beyond help and out of your depth.

It was Veteran who attempted to draw the comparison between the NZ Government's policy towards Venezuela and South Africa.

As I pointed out, and as PM concurs, and as you fail to grasp - no NZ government recognised the SA opposition as government and yet Veteran expects that NZ will do that for the venezuelan usurper.




Andrei said...

Adolf it was Veteran, in his post, who raised South Africa

And the implication of what he was saying is that New Zealand in days of yore made foreign policy decisions based upon their disapproval of South African internal policies and thus it is hypocritical for them not to in the case of Venezuela

However that is a non sequitur - The issue here is recognizing a Government in a sovereign as legitimate when it is not under the constitution of that sovereign nation and another administration is.

The ultimate consequences of doing this will almost certainly lead to civil war in that sovereign nation and much human misery

And if you truly believe that the antipathy the powers that be have towards the lefitimate Venezuealan administration has anything to do with "human rights" orpolitical freedom then I have a bridge to sell you...

It is all about gaining control over stratefic resources.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Always look for the lie, particularly when Tommy is around...

Was Che Guevara a racist?...from his 1964 speech to the UN......

"We speak out to put the world on guard against what is happening in South Africa. The brutal policy of apartheid is applied before the eyes of the nations of the world. The peoples of Africa are compelled to endure the fact that on the African continent the superiority of one race over another remains official policy, and that in the name of this racial superiority murder is committed with impunity. Can the United Nations do nothing to stop this?"


"Those who kill their own children and discriminate daily against them because of the color of their skin; those who let the murderers of blacks remain free, protecting them, and furthermore punishing the black population because they demand their legitimate rights as free men — how can those who do this consider themselves guardians of freedom? The government of the United States is not the champion of freedom, but rather the perpetrator of exploitation and oppression against the peoples of the world and against a large part of its own population."

Was he homophobic?, there is no absolutely no proof either way apart from being close to Fidel Castro who was as was the overall atmosphere in Cuba. However if Tom would like to provide a link that isn't Breibart???

Was he a mass murderer. once again there is no evidence. He was in attendance at the Cuban executions of "war criminals" but as a visitor he had no say.

Perhaps this would be helpful, particularly the bit about the head of the CIA who was also on the board of United Fruit whose interests were being threatened by Guatemalan land reform......http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?14761-Was-Che-Guevara-a-murderer-homophobe-racist#.XFqtnlVKjIU



"

David said...

However if Tom would like to provide a link that isn't Breibart???

Nah, Tom is to Breitbart as Wiggles is to RT.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

I'm quite sure I would not like Marx if he were alive to day.

He sponged money off Engels for decades, something which probably didn’t endear him to Engels, as he was forced to steal petty cash to give to Marx, which Marx would then blow on ale. One day, after getting his housemaid pregnant, he made Engels take the blame so that his own wife wouldn’t find out. And that was his best friend.

A friend he was less close to he let fight a duel on his behalf, which saw him get a bullet in the head – all because Marx had been mildly insulted in public.

Strangers had reason to not like Marx, too. With a massive beard he refused to get cut and underpants he refused to change even once a week, it’s fair to say barbers and people in the general vicinity were also not fans. By the end of his life he had been expelled from at least three countries.

Psycho Milt said...

I think all of those pale into insignificance compared to his highly-dislikable success at convincing people it's possible to implement a utopia through violence. You'd think the 20th Century would have put that one to bed, but there are still people who believe it.

However, like him or not, his description of capitalism and its likely outcome was probably the second-most important academic work of the 19th Century (the first being Darwin's). Thanks (inadvertently) to Marx, there has never been a communist revolution in a capitalist country because none of them are stupid enough to allow capitalism unmixed with socialism.

The Veteran said...

Egbut on Marx ... careful now old son, your few home truths will have David choking on his cornflakes.

For Milt ... some would say there is a degree of similarity in the turgid prose of both Das Kapital and Mein Kampf.

Tom Hunter said...

Seriously Eggburt? In the age of the Internet there's no excuse for this sort of apologetic ignorance when it comes to Communist killers. You found some half-assed website that quotes a "historian" (their claim) behind a pseudonym on Reddit who specialises in excuses for the man. I note the slippery language by which this person eventually gets around to basically saying that Yeah, Che killed people, but he was a Communist and they were Counter-Revolutionaries, so whatcha gonna do?

Pathetic. I think I'll reserve other stuff for a series on Lefty Myths and this can be for the one for Che, but in the meantime you can read this letter from Thor Halvorssen, founder of the Human Rights Foundation, to the CEO of Urban Outfitters in the USA, who thought it would be cool to use Che's iconic image to flog it's stuff:
As a nonprofit organization dedicated to the defense of human rights, we would like to bring your attention to Guevara’s bloody and anti-democratic legacy.

Although Guevara’s image has appeared on countless items for consumption over the last few decades as a symbol of change for the better, Guevara’s actual record is that of a brutal tyrant who suppressed individual freedom in Cuba and murdered those who challenged his worldview.
...
Guevara undoubtedly played a key role in the overthrow of the dictatorial Batista regime in January of 1959. However, despite promises of a new democratic government, within a few months he and Fidel Castro had designed and installed a full-blown police state that deprived the overwhelming majority of Cuban citizens of democracy and human rights.


Well he led the Stalinist faction inside the Revolution, and as with Lenin, when they won, "things changed" for the other revolutionaries. It's also why his relations with the Soviets grew icy after the Cuban Missile Crisis: they'd quit Stalinism, but Che was one to the day he died.

Despite the mountain of evidence for these abuses, much of which comes directly from Guevara’s own meticulous journals ...

I'll leave it there, but you should also read the letter written by Yale Professor Carlos Eire to the Irish Times in response to plans by the city of Galway to erect a statue honoring Che:
Che was my neighbor in Havana, and I actually saw him in the flesh several times. He lived in an opulent mansion just a few blocks from my very small house, and also ran the prison of La CabaƱa, where some of my relatives ended up being tortured and murdered. Their crime? Voicing an opinion different from Che’s. Or, in the case of my uncle, simply having a son who voiced an opinion contrary to Che’s. The awful truth about Ernesto “Che” Guevara is that he was a violent thug with despotic tendencies.

There's plenty more where that came from, including some admittedly polemical blasts, but of course I see your link (I would hardly call it an article) simply handwaves away the testimony of countless survivors and refugees from Cuba, preferring the sort of hagiographies written about him "in grateful cooperation to the help and assistance of the Cuban government" as the forewords go.

It's as if The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich should have had William Shirer relying on Nazis (quite a few were still alive when he wrote it) for information rather than the enemies and victims of the Nazis, or that The Great Terror should have had Conquest relying on Nikita Khrushchev or any other Soviet communist, rather than their victims and enemies. Because people like that are biased!!

Psycho Milt said...

Shirer certainly should have relied on Nazis as well as their enemies and victims for his work, and Conquest should have relied Krushchev and other Soviet officials as well as their enemies and victims for his work. That would have their books important historical works, rather than lengthy assurances for western conservatives that their views on good guys vs bad guys are correct.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Better stop here before we burn up the ether on Batista and the Miami Mafia who I expect were non communist killers. Cuba was a revolution waiting to happen. A revolution is actually a civil war and civil wars are he most blood thirsty and cruel.

The American revolution was their first civil war with the addition of the French and the British on opposing sides.

Andrei said...

"Seriously Eggburt? In the age of the Internet there's no excuse for this sort of apologetic ignorance when it comes to Communist killers. "

Seriously Tom Hunter anyone who has explored the internet knows it is full of shit

And you also should realize all people, which includes you, me, Adolf and the Veteran &c. seek out material that reinforces our world views and discount material that makes us uncomfortable by challenging it

What is clear though is that the Venezualan people elected a Government who earned the disapproval of the USA by Nationlisng Venezuela's oil resources and that since that happened the USA has been waging an economic war against the Venezualan people in order to overturn that result

It is also clear that the USA is smuggling arms into Venezuela and placing them into the hands of anti social elements in the hope of rendering Venzuela ungovernable.

Right now they are making it difficult for Venezuela to export its oil or anything else by forbidding payment for these things using American settlement systems which means the majority of the world's nations cannot trade with Venzuela even if they wanted to

China and Russia can but they don't have the tanker fleets to move Venzuelan oil in significant quantities and other tanker fleet owners who come to the party would be punished for doing so by being cut out of other oil trades

We know where this will end, violence and bloodshed and in my mind it is evil

David said...

Egbut on Marx ... careful now old son, your few home truths will have David choking on his cornflakes.

Not at all, Veteran, The world is full of people who were despicable as humans, but that does not diminish their research. James Watson led a despicable private life, but does that mean that we throw out all his work on unravelling DNA? The same could be said for serial sexual assaulter Richard Feynman. Should we allow his PUA lifestyle to overshadow his work in popularising Physics and exposing the real cause of the Challenger disaster?

Say what you like about Marx's personal life, but much of his economic analysis is as relevant today as when he wrote.

Mein Kampf is also relevant to today as an example of how a demagogue can rise seemingly from nowhere and that the path to political success is to create a common enemy to unite the Volk. The Jews for Hitler, the Hispanics for Trump.

The Veteran said...

Just to round all this off and could I invite those so opposed to recognising Guaido as the legitimate interim President of Venezuela to read the countries constitution.

Maduro's term expired on 10 January. A rigged election, condemned by any number of countries as fraudulent (including the UN where their High Commissioner for Human Rights described it as "not in any way fulfilling minimal conditions for free and credible elections) and where the turnout only reached 46% in the face of widespread intimidation by Maduro's thugs, did not confer any legitimacy on Maduro as head of state.

Article 233 of the Venezuelan then came into play with the President of the National Assembly assuming office until new (and free) elections can be held ... and the majority of the western world (except New Zealand) acknowledges that.

Just what is it with our Government and some on this blog that they continue to defend Maduro as President? Defending the indefensible is never a good look.

Andrei said...

Any election that does not return a result approved in Foggy Bottom will be condemned as fraudulent" Veteran

Whereas you were conspicuously silent on the Ukrainian Elections where the ruling party before the American engineered coup was declared illegal, candidates (and in some cases their families) were murdered and an American Quuisling Government with neo Nazi elements installed

You could sail a super tanker through the double standards on display here!!!

Psycho Milt said...

Just what is it with our Government and some on this blog that they continue to defend Maduro as President? Defending the indefensible is never a good look.

The number of national leaders in the world without a genuine mandate to govern is huge, and includes a great many US allies. Are you demanding our government recognise all those leaders' opponents as the legitimate rulers of those countries, or do you just have a bee in your bonnet about the socialist ones? Because it's either one or the other.

You could sail a super tanker through the double standards on display here!!!

At last, something we can agree on...

Psycho Milt said...

What is clear though is that the Venezualan people elected a Government who earned the disapproval of the USA by Nationlisng Venezuela's oil resources and that since that happened the USA has been waging an economic war against the Venezualan people in order to overturn that result

That pretty much sums it up. This latest aggro is just the latest installment. The merits or otherwise of Maduro's government are irrelevant to proceedings, except in the sense that if he were a right-wing dictator, the US government would be training his death squads and helping him disappear his enemies.

Pablo said...

I was disappointed to see that Gerald (3:04PM Feb 6) plagiarised without attribution a passage from a post I wrote over at Kiwipolitico. Naughty boy.

For a fuller view of why, not surprisingly, I differ with The Veteran and Tom Hunter, I outline my thoughts on the Venezuelan crisis in two KP essays: http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2019/02/on-the-venezuelan-mess/
and http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2019/02/the-venezuelan-mess-again/

Cheers.

The Veteran said...

Pablo ... as it happens I agree with your analysis of the Venezuelan mess that the key player is the military (read Army). But I didn’t see you arguing that the Maduro presidency had any legitimacy and that’s my point.

It’s not about marching to the US drum. It’s all about doing the right thing.

Andrei said...

"It’s not about marching to the US drum. It’s all about doing the right thing."

And what exactly is "doing the right thing" - Veteran?

And who should benefit from "doing the right thing"?

Probably the most oppressive regime on the planet is the Absolute Monarchy of Saudi Arabia - should we be "doing the right thing" over their atrocious human rights record?

And if not why not?

In fact everything you know about the current Venezualan situation is from US sources who are manipulating you into supporting their covert WAR against the Venzuealan people. A war conducted in order to steal their natural resources and prevent them from developing their own people and building their own independant nation run according to their own national interests.

In other words this is just good old fashioned colonialism at work

David said...

Andrei, several times I have posed the question:

Veteran, Why Venezuela and not China? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? The Philippines? Burma? Zimbabwe?

Crickets

Veteran, Hunter, Adolf, are all singing from the US play sheet that Maduro is holding his position illegally.

This is just part 593 of the war the US has waged against Venezuela for 17 years!

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Andrei....I'm surprised that you did not mention your man god who lent the regime $6bn
and took a lease on most of the oilfields...presumably it is a legal contract?

It seems the nasty regime destabilising US is in stiff competition with the nasty regime destabilising Putin.

David said...

Reposting from a comment at The Inquiring Mind

Did you know that the the United States’ Special Envoy to Venezuela is Elliot Abrams, who gave a nod to the attempted 2002 Venezuelan coup, and who has a conviction for misleading Congress over the infamous Iran-Contra affair?

Anyone want to reconsider in the light of this?

Johno said...

And now Maduro is taking active steps to starve his own population:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12201842

Mao and Stalin would be proud. And so must the others who are supporting Maduro.

Andrei said...

Sure Jonno

For years the USA has been creating difficulties for the elecyed Government of Venezuela which includes allowing for them to provide the necessities of life for their people

This is pure theatre on the USA's behalf - chances are the so called aid isn't designed to help the long suffering Venezuealan people but is in probably weapons to help the USA to install the Quisling puppet they groomed to assist them in their rape that nation's natural resources

Johno said...

Sure Andrei, next you'll tell me Trump arranged for that bridge to be blockaded. How deep *do* you bury your head in the sand?

I see Canada's wet PM Trudeau recognises Guaido and is offering humanitarian aid just like Trump! Humanitarian aid! The horrible bastard!

Meanwhile the EU parliament flip-flopped and now recognises Guaido as interim president effectively meaning all the member states do likewise.

The number of countries standing on the sidelines or supporting Maduro is dwindling to a small list of failed states, despotisms such as Russia, China, Syria, North Korea, Cuba and New Zealand. You are judged by the company you keep. Of course Winston has to be dragged screaming from Putin's cuddling arms so no surprise.

Psycho Milt said...

You are judged by the company you keep.

Yep, and we're in the excellent company of all those countries that haven't leapt to kiss arse the moment the US government tells them to get to it. Thank Christ we don't have National for a government or we'd be forever trying to get the taste of shit off our tongues.

Kimbo said...

Now, now, Psycho Milt. I think you're forgetting the efforts of NZ in the passing of UNSC2334, championed by that Tory prince of darkness who dines on working class babies every breakfast...Murray McCully. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good leftie rant.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Funny you should say that, Milt. The people of Venezuela would love nothing better than to get the taste of some shit ON their tongues. Any shit.

Voyager said...

And if anybody's got plenty of shit to share ...

Psycho Milt said...

Kimbo: yeah, but you gotta admit, that was pretty out of character wasn't it? Some commenters on Kiwiblog still whinge about it.

Kimbo said...

Out of character? Well, let's see - National under Jim Bolger also adopted the No Nukes policy in the late 1980s, and also sent a frigate to Mururoa in the mid-1990s when the French were sitll testing nukes underground.

Norman Kirk: he wasn't Prime Minister for long, and the third Labour government he led ended up being tatty and deservedly kicked out after only one term...but other than Peter Fraser for a week at San Francisco in 1945 Big Norm was the first genuine New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs, and he and his policies continue to rule from beyond the grave over forty years later.

Psycho Milt said...

Oh, we all hated French nuclear testing, didn't we? Good on Bolger, though, that was proper government - especially good on him (as overall boss of things) for the name Operation Valerian, Valerian being a French sci fi comic book hero notable for doing the right thing and standing up to evildoers. That must have pissed the French govt off no end.

Kimbo said...

What?! Not “Operation Asterix”, by Toutatis! :)

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

No Kimbo

Winston Peterix is saving that one for the day France dares to enter a horse in the Auckland Cup. He'll send Noblix along to the birdcage to do the job.

Psycho Milt said...

"Noblix" - very good, did you do the English translations of Asterix, by any chance?

Kimbo said...

The French will enter a horse? Sounds dodgy. You sure it won’t be la cheval on the menu at Ellerslie?

Kimbo said...

La cheval?! Merde! Le cheval you eegnorant Anglais-Keewee!

Johno said...

"Yep, and we're in the excellent company of all those countries that haven't leapt to kiss arse the moment the US government tells them to get to it."

Milt, in your USA obsessed derangement you conveniently forget to also mention UK, France, Germany, Austria, Australia, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and so on. You reckon they've all got the taste of US shit on their tongues too?

And who are "all those countries that haven't leapt to kiss arse" ?

Judged by the company you keep. Russia, Syria, China, North Korea, Cuba...

Psycho Milt said...

And who are "all those countries that haven't leapt to kiss arse" ?

Well, duh. Around 30 countries have followed the US lead, so the company we're keeping is "most of the world's countries."

The question of why the EU is participating is an interesting one, and Paul Buchanan's written about it better than I could in this post:

This has me wondering why so many democracies have been quick to jump on the Guaido bandwagon. They surely are not acting just out of ideological distaste for the Bolivarian regime. They surely have good information on Guaido’s background and connections to Lopez and US interlocutors. They surely must know that although Maduro and his cronies are reprehensible thieves posing as a popular government, Guaido’s connections to the US will make it very difficult for him to claim legitimacy and could in fact, spark a violent backlash from the 30 percent of the Venezuelan population that continue to support Maduro (mostly the poor and working class). They also must understand the perils of supporting a foreign-backed constitutional coup (which is essentially what being attempted), especially when the move is closely tied to the threat of US military intervention. So why would they abandon long-held commitments to upholding the doctrine of non-intervention?

Buchanan suggests a possible answer, but the fact is we don't know. There's certainly no argument I've seen made for our government joining them in abandoning that long-held commitment.

Johno said...

SMilt doesn't like to admit to the list of 3rd world failed states and despotisms then...

Psycho Milt said...

All the world's countries except for 30 of them are 3rd world failed states and despotisms, then? Pretty grim outlook for the world... Also kind of rude to places like Norway and Switzerland that haven't jumped on the bandwagon either, but no doubt they're honorary failed states because socialism or something.