Monday, January 7, 2019


An inquiry into the whole field of road safety, crash causes , mechanical failure and driver error.

With two intellectual heavy weights in charge and a pledge from the Melon one to have the road toll at zero by 2020 as a visional target road toll reference,  the current  measure just hit a high spot to embarrass her.

Twyford mired in a swamp of his own creation around home building and ownership, that has more holes than would seem necessary to effect drainage and Genter seeming to have abandoned hope there are two very serious subjects that need addressing.
One, the stark figure of those who die on roads is so misleading. I think it was c1973 that a record was set  at over 800, then fuel price escalation reduced vehicle trips and kilometers travelled , on to another peak c1989 when significant vehicle safety systems began reducing deaths in crashes.
Two, find more appropriate measures of crashes per Kms travelled
Now the trend is again on the increase but safer roads and vehicles are in combat with marked increased trips and Kms travelled.

There are some spectacular crashes for sure where speed is a primary factor but driver error remains a constant cause in most crashes, note so far I have avoided the misnomer 'accident 'as a very small number of injury and death resulting crashes can in any way be described as an accident.

In the last seven weeks I have travelled over 5000 Kms between Sth Canterbury and Waikato via West Coast, Marlborough, Wellington, Wairarapa, Hawkes Bay, Taupo and Bay of Plenty, mostly towing a mobile home and if I had a dash cam fitted there would have been a trove of footage of seriously stupid driver activity inviting self destruction.

Pleas for slower traffic to pull over ignored, Yellow lines acting as a challenge even better when double, delaying an overtaking opportunity until much of the safety margin is exhausted and the hill or bend is too close,  one or more following vehicles happy to stay behind my 16 meter rig doing the  90 kph regulatory limit thereby  increasing the need to overtake out to some thirty meters or more, without even mentioning the total idiocy of the stupid increasing speed on passing lanes because the wide road encourages, instead of slowing to allow many more to pass.
Allied to some rather heavy holiday traffic numbers, many grossly overloaded with people and gear,  the amazing thing for me is how more crashes do not eventuate. 
One Blessing since Christmas eve many long haul and Log trucks are parked up, but now that is all about to change.

It is apparent to me that revenue driven collection points both manned and unmanned, parked strategically at the bottom of hill slopes, the end of passing lanes or hidden in shade to trap someone who has crept over the limit by a few percentage points and setting up road blocks to catch an experienced driver with higher tolerance of small amounts of alcohol in their blood stream while totally ignoring the increasing numbers who drive drugged by illegal substances just doesn't cut the mustard.
Then there are the numbers of unregistered , unwarranted and seriously unsafe vehicles , along with unlicensed and poorly trained drivers that abound.

Some serious study as to where, why, how and could avoidance have mitigated needs investigation as the world has moved on from the deadly 1970s where current thinking seems mired in at NZLTSA.
Something better than white and yellow paint, cheese cutter barriers and a vexatious constabulary is so last century.

Road safety and policing needs a massive rethink.


RosscoWLG said...

Totally agree on the rethink.

While we all have our anecdotal stories only a true and thorough examination and analysis of the statistics will provide the answers.

For instance, what is the break down on motorcycles, pedestrians, bikes. Take out the tourists , take out the deaths between 10 pm and 6am, take out the suicides, and a range of other factors and get to the true underlying death rate. etc.

As usual you would find that most of the deaths are probably created by a minority. I guess the insurance industry has the true statistics of age related deaths

Successive govts have failed to address the issue but at the end of the day I guess there is a normalised "rate" per KM traveled and where diminishing returns set in.

its a guns and butter argument... We had a choice of infrastructure or welfare.. we chose welfare and perhaps you could argue both have been a failure


Snowflake said...

Holy shit, Wigout. What time did you start drinking this morning?

Why would taking out deaths occurring in the night get to the “true underlying death rate”? That’s just weird. How do you determine whether a road death is a suicide or not? Are tourists not people? And which minority do you think “cause most of the deaths”?

Anyhow, there are detailed published statistics on most of the matters you think require analysis. Why don’t you settle in take a look and tell us what you think should happen?

Also, why do you think it’s a binary choice between “infrastructure and welfare”? What about defence spending, or taxing your self-proclaimed wealthy ass a bit more? How about investing in public transport? Options abound, my dopey chum.

RosscoWLG said...

Knew it... you had to bring public transport into the argument. Let me guess you are on secondment from NZTA to Julie Anne Genter's office and you were the snowflake who advised her 9 months ago she could reduce the road toll to zero....we all catch buses!!!

I would imagine that km's travelled during the work day, 7 am say to 7 pm is a totally different figure from that 7pm to 7am and accordingly the rate is higher in the that latter category.

Sorry about the guns and butter, that was way above your pay grade, you took me literally, Ill keep it simple in the future

But you have all the answers, but never seen a one of them that I can recall....oops sorry public transport, of course.


Snowflake said...

Christ alive you’re inarticulate. What does your second paragraph mean? The 7pm to 7am is a totally different figure? So what? You said you should not count deaths between 10pm and 6am, and can’t explain why you think that is. Or perhaps you can. Go ahead...

And you did mean that infrastructure has been directly traded off against welfare, so stop pretending you didn’t. You are exhibiting both short and long-term symptoms of excessive drinking. In your case, public transport would certainly be the safest way for you to get around.

So, answers include a higher minimum driving age, lower urban speed limits, targeted roading improvements (wire median barriers, tactile road markings etc), investment in public transport (the horror! VENEZUALA!!), separating cyclists from cars, better enforcement and modernising the vehicle fleet faster. Also convincing aging fuckwits such as yourself that buying a Harley is really retarded.

Now, what are your solutions, Einstein?

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

"Holy shit" and "Christ alive"

Such is the juvenile verbiage employed by the invertebrate who accuses others of being inarticulate.

I quite like the sound of that. "Inarticulate invertebrate"

Johno said...

Totally agree with the OP. Shame the resident idiot had to wade in and drag it off into an irrelevant pissing match.

The road toll hasn't budged, and NZTA/Police have been bleating the same speed mantra for decades. It's time the retention of some of those highly paid jobs became pegged to the road toll reduction. That way they might be able to come up with some new ideas.

Don't normally have a lot of Clive Matthew Wilson but he's on the money here:

Snowflake said...

Adolt has nothing to offer except abuse. Johno has nothing at all to offer exept abuse, a falsehood and the suggestion that someone get fired. Come on guys, I realise you’re all irredeemably stupid, but you’ve stopped trying.

RosscoWLG said...

The same old tired suggestions from NZTAflunky formerly snowflake.

1. include a higher minimum driving age. Nope, stupid idea, deprives yoing and poor people of the right to work. Better training yes.
2. "lower urban speed limits" political expedient aimed at paving way for cyclists and more so called public transport
3. "targeted roading improvements (wire median barriers, tactile road markings etc) Agreed
4. " investment in public transport" stupid idea. its not an investment but a net cost to the community. Thats an idea from snowflake central with no facts to support it.
5." separating cyclists from cars" Ditto point 4, dumber than a sack full of socialists. Ban cyclists as a means of transport, except for designated off road recreational areas.
6. "better enforcement" what you mean more of the same old crap
7."modernising the vehicle fleet faster" Code for punish the poor who snowflakes loath. making cars uneconomic for everyone and encourage them onto public transport>

Adolf love your "Inarticulate invertebrate" thats a winner, best for awhile.

Agree with Johno..that's innovative thinking

So Snowflaked out of ideas.... just heard the usual mantra from the left, absolutely no grasp of the figures you claim to have intimate knowledge of.

Thats a 3/10 for analysis, more thinking required, wider reading, a Stats class or two.


Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Snowflake. I offer not abuse but astute observation.

Tell me again all about your sense of self awareness.

I'l give it to you slowly.

It is rare for people who use language like 'holy shit' and 'Christ alive' to be so stupid as to call people who don't use such language 'inarticulate.'

Why, even Alemain Kopu had a better grasp of the English language than you do.

Snowflake said...

Pretentious, moi?

As for having a grasp of the English language, you’re borderline illiterate, Adolt. You know just enough to survive as a grifter, and that’s it.

RosscoWLG said...

In Snowflakes world it doesn't matter what your ideas are, if you haven't crafted them in perfect Englidsh they are worthless.

I guess a lifetime of Media Studies 101 does that for you.

Thats why snowflakes in general hate the poor, most of them couldn't pass media studies.

But I guess the ledger is balanced by the fact Snowflake just hates any argument with maths, science, accounting or economics involved, where cost / benefit maybe mentioned.

Still waiting for more sensible, innovative road toll reduction ideas, oh, and the analysis of the statistics you have at your finger tips.


Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

The problem is simple to identify by a little harder to correct. It is 21st century cars on 1930's roads. Forty per cent of New Zealand's state highways have a two-star safety rating - which meant the roads had undivided opposing lanes, were poorly aligned, featured hazards such as narrow or unsealed shoulders or had unforgiving roadside objects such as trees, deep ditches, and concrete poles.

In the UK our state highway would be classed as an "A" road or a "B" road in France they would be known as a Departmental road...all have a speed limit of 80KPH. In most cases they are wider with shallower curves and far better and visible signage not the rubbish "just in time" signs you get in NZ.

Many deaths and injuries are at intersections with give way signs...get rid of them and put in mini roundabouts. Won't cost much as they can be precast and dropped into place...

In the interests of low taxes NZ's infrastructure has been woefully neglected over the years. It's time to bite the bullet and start paying the piper. Someone said some time ago that France is full of 120kph cars driving on 200kph roads and the NZ is full of 200kph cars driving on 100kph roads.....

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Just one more point I forgot to mention....On average three people are killed and more than 250 are injured each year in crashes at roundabouts in NZ per year.

The older roundabouts for main intersections are no longer suitable due to speed at which the modern car with modern tyres can go no longer separates the traffic to allow other roads access during rush periods.

The French solved this problem by building an opposite camber ( High in the middle, low on the outside) on their rondpoints so it is impossible to exceed 30Kph while traversing. Lots of cheap simple thing to do but I'm afraid our planners indulge in a lot of navel gazing.

Johno said...

I've driven around a bit in France. Their roundabouts are chaos incarnate.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

You are making it up Johno....but then again it was you who said a few posts ago that reneweables would never catchup to fossil fuels all the while you are resident of a country that has 82% of it's electricity from renewables.

You lack credibility and your one liners fall on deaf ears.....of course there is always abuse and ridicule....where is Wiggo when you need him/

Johno said...

It's true. In typical Gallic fashion their roundabouts are a mess of pushing in and horn honking. NZ roundabouts are relatively tame and orderly in comparison.

As to your other load of crap "reneweables would never catchup to fossil fuels"... this is what I actually said:

"Eventually renewables will catch up but they're not even close at the moment."

So first of all I never said "never" - quite the opposite. Further, nothing there says I am talking about NZ - that's your own dishonest little goalpost move to bring in a NZ statistic.

You talk a lot of crap, Egbut, so desist from putting words in my mouth.

Johno said...

... and never mind the fact that in France some roundabouts give traffic entering the roundabout right of way, but others give traffic in the roundabout right of way. Yeah that's really smart.

The Veteran said...

Egbut will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he's visited our shores in the last decade so he's probably not aware of the huge investment in roading infrastructure that took place from 2011 to 2017. Sadly the tap has been turned off by 'his' mob with much of the money diverted to public transport which, in the provinces, is virtually non existent (except for Inter-City and suchlike) and will remain so.

Up here the CoL cancelled the Warkworth to Whangarei super highway with the Jones boy derisively dismissing as the 'holiday highway'. It's not, it's 'our' economic highway and Jones will pay for that quite stupid decision come election time.

RosscoWLG said...

Yep my point exactly Vet...something snowflake couldn't understand, guns versus butter.

Welfare in the form of public transport rather than an investment that would create economic activity, jobs, growth in a very backward region. (The region maybe backward but the rumour about the people being straight out of the movie Deliverance is pure exaggeration !)

The National Govt addressed the transport issue as you rightly point out Vet and they are due the kudos for that.

Also as you called for we need that analysis out in the open of road deaths!!

And Egbut made a serious contribution which is due points too ...

Lord Egbut Nobacon said... manage to turn every discussion into a lead lined political boot and blame game. I stand by my post ..."40% of NZ's state highways are rated two star" ie substandard and have been since the fifties and are killing people. Answer...investment and lots of it.

I don't often resort to personal abuse but I might have to if the moronic Johno posts anymore of his nonsense after watching 1954 Jacques Tati films.

The EU 27 have standardised road makings and signage, speed limits and enforcement are up to the sovereign states. Oh and it's illegal to sound your horn outside of an emergency (or wedding). This is why out of 100,000 population there are 5.1 deaths in France and 7.6 per 100,000 motor vehicles. And NZ? 8.5 . and 12.2

Look and learn Johno and stop pretending you have been to places you only dream about...

Johno said...

In Egbut's strange world people never do what the EU says not to do, nobody in France toots their horn other than for emergencies and weddings and he thinks quoting some irrelevant stats makes his bizarre assertions sensible.

Meanwhile back in the team real world...

Egbut, you lied about what I said and your credibility is dwindling away to nil. Squeal all you like though.

Anonymous said...

No links, no refs, no vids, no clue, no fucking idea, way to go Johno

Anonymous said...

I worked in claims in a big insurance company in a previous life. No fatal where we were the insurer was settled until we saw the inquest report. While mainly concerned about blood alcohol levels (under the influence would have breached the policy) there was a wealth of info about car condition and what witnesses saw to help establish the cause. I recall few drunks but the odd suicide and medical event cropped up. Car faults existed on occasion but were factors in the accident very rarely. What has changed in my view is that cars have increasingly become an entertainment centre on wheels and distractions such as cell phones (I look down into cars from my truck and notice that use while driving is very widespread) and that these distractions have seen cars casually operated rather than driven nowadays. Cars are safer than ever in a crash but we are not paying attention. Speed is only a focus because the cops can measure it and fund raise from it - there is no subjective decision making about safety required. Likewise drinking where its clear where influence on driving performance begins to be measurable but the science is ignored and we engage in knee jerk reactions that do not address the problem.


Johno said...

Anonymous said...
"No links, no refs, no vids, no clue, no fucking idea, way to go Johno"

I find it weird that Egbut and his sockpuppet think that an opinion that French roundabouts are chaotic compared to NZ would need references, vids and cites. It is even more odd that Egbut would lose his shit so badly over having a differing opinion that he gets off his high horse, having admonished others recently for juvenile name-calling, and starts name calling over it!

Do you need a cite for the fact that France has two different rules for right of way in roundabouts? It is particularly strange that Egbut links a video of some roundabouts proves anything.

But here we go: one example proves nothing but it is funny. Did I hear tooting? Impossible. Egbut told me it's illegal unless an emergency or wedding. No Frenchman would ever do something that the EU said no to, right? France is such an orderly country, never has strikes and riots does it?

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

I'm not sure that I should reply to your idiocy as it may encourage you. The Arc de Triomphe was finished in 1836...sacred place to the French and a historical monument, there is about as much chance of that being changed as Trafalgar Square which is nearly as hectic but not quite,

In any case that mobile grid lock in which I was a participant in an ancient Land Rover many years ago is known as Girotoire, and yes due it's size traffic entering have right of way. I believe there is one in Marseilles also. Try looking at my link which even though it is near the Swiss border it is the same throughout the country which is three times the size of NZ.....I hope this helps in your coming OA.....


The whole idea of road modern planning is to mitigate human frailties. To take into consideration human and mechanical failure wherever possible. NZ Sate highways do not meet that criteria. Given that NZ has almost double the French fatalities I invite the Inquiry to read this......

Johno said...

As you ought to know, Egbut, there are plenty of other, typically old roundabouts in France with the old rule.

Oh, and the French are even worse than Kiwis when it comes to blocking intersections. Anything to do with queuing comes down to 'me first' with them. Their roundabouts are no exception.

PS: cite a link to support your assertion that horns are specifically allowed for weddings. I call BS on that one too.

Johno said...

An amusing link for Egbut:

BTW what's an OA?

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Johno ..your post No.1...Name one as I have yet to find one....120,000km Malaga to Berlin and counting.

Post No.2...Its a joke just like the books you buy on the ferry dealing with Dutch, English, German idiosyncrasies. Want to hear jokes about Kiwi Driving? any back packers web site will do.

I'm stopping this now, it's becoming childish

Johno said...

Place Hoche in Versaille comes to mind. Although that roundabout is even weirder in that one entrance has the new rule (Rue Hoche entering from the south) whereas the other entrances use the old rule.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

It's not weird, it's a part of a one way system incorporating the D186 a major outlet, it's not a roundabout. But never been there I just googled a map.

Here's another one in the UK that I use all the time. Just scroll down.
Entrance to roundabout is controlled by traffic lights. Make even a Jaffa nervous.