Friday, December 14, 2018

PELL GUILTY AS CHARGED

In a decision that will have sent shockwaves through the Catholic Church in Australia and beyond Cardinal George Pell, the third most senior cleric in the Vatican hierarchy holding as he does the position of Secretary for the Economy, was this week found guilty by an Australian court on five charges relating to the abuse of two choirboys at St Patrick's Cathedral in the late 1990s when he was the Archbishop of Melbourne.

In a somewhat strange decision all details regarding his conviction have been suppressed from the media in Oz ... FFS, he's been found guilty.   The trial has been concluded.

Mr Pell (not sure if he remains a 'Prince of the Church') has been released on bail pending his sentencing in February.   The Judge ordered that Pell be taken into custody at that time.

Pell is human,   Clearly he has has human frailties.   His conviction reinforces the point that no-one, however high his/her station, is above the law.   That is how it should be.  

I'm not Catholic but clearly the faith gives comfort to many hundreds of millions and the actions of errant Priests should not be seen as representative of the vast majority of Catholic clergy and used to bludgeon the Church ... but I suspect it will.  

31 comments:

David said...

In this wired world, suppression orders cannot work for long, but I do understand the court's desire for suppression in this particular case. Pell is to face further charges next year, and there is a desire to ensure that he receives a fair trial, and that if guilty, a conviction will be achieved.

It is times like this that I wish his religion were true and he would spend eternity in torture.

The Veteran said...

David ... thank you. I wasn't aware there was a second tranche of charges. I now understand the rationale for the suppression orders.

Andrei said...

Fret not David there is a Day of Judgement and if the man is guilty he will be held to account and if on the other hand this is another attack on the Church by servants of the Anti-Christ they will be held to account.

We live in an age of Godlessness and Blasphemies...

David said...

Oh Andrei, give up on the fairy tales.

Your "god" was asleep at the wheel while children were abused by his servants. He either doesn't care, in which case he is a moral monster, or he does not exist, which is the most likely given all the evidence to hand.

We have always lived in an age of godlessness due to the lack of self evident gods, and blasphemy is a victimless crime.

Accept the church has been a hot bed of immorality and illegality since its foundation and do the decent thing - resign!

Johno said...

"It is times like this that I wish his religion were true and he would spend eternity in torture."

Nah, as long as you fess up on your deathbed, repent etc all is forgiven. Sweet!

gravedodger said...

Meanwhile David your godless athiests dont just fiddle with kids they slaughter millions, enslave further countless millions and are never held to account because almost without exception they die or are given similar treatment by their successors who continue the cycle.

This is not a defense of Pell but conviction so long after must be a tiny bit suspect.
Thirty years ago?? Peter Ellis?????

David said...

So, let me get this right dodger - it is OK for a Priest to fuck a kid because an atheist fucked a kid? man you are sick!

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Not that I am advocating Priestacide but not far from me they rounded up all the corrupt landowning Clergy who had been screwing, sometimes literally, the peasantry of all ages for 200 years and barged them out into the middle of the river with their hands tied and then sunk the barge.

This is the reason you do not have prayers at school, on Armistice day or in the the French Parliament (French word)......we have a lot to learn.

Andrei said...

On this thread we see the dangers of jury trials when the mechamisms of witch hunts and various prejudices come into play

David and Egbut display attitudes towards the Catholi clergy little different to that of the Nazis towards jews

There is little difference between the drowning of clergy during the "age pf enlightenment in 18th century France and the way the Bolsheviks "treated them in the early 20th century - it is mob rule

Nothing is said in this post and it has been little mentioned that this is Cardinal Pell's second trial the first ending with a hung jury

Coming from my tradition I find the claims against him extraordinary - not that he might sexually abuse choir boys but that he would do so while vested in a Catholic Church. To me coming from my strict Russian Orthodox background that would be the ultimate blasphemy and I find it hard to beleive that any Catholic or Orthodox believer could do such a thing

The sense of a Church being a sacred space is less strong in Protestants - a Temple filled with the prescence of God but it is very strong in me, an individual who as a child had special clothes down to underwear and socks reserved for wearing in Church and never worn for any other purpose

Surely the good Cardinal is familiar with this verse

Mark 9:42
" And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

Human history is filled with show trials that have more to do with politics than impartial justice and this just might be another - look up the Pendleton witch craft trials for example - or the Dreyfus case in France

And you can see from their comments that both David and Egbut exhibit the traits of those who would have gone along with the flow in these cases their prejudices overruling their rationality

GD on the other hand appears to counternance the possibilty of a miscarriage of justice and maintain a level of skepticism - shared by myself

A question might be were I to be selected as a juror for a trial of this nature would I be rejected by the prosecution and if David were selected would he also be?

David said...

Classic god botherer tosh from Andrei.

Not a word of condemnation for priestly abuse, just personal attacks on Egbut and me.

Come on Andrei, condemn those who destroy children's lives.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

David it is you who deals in pathetic tosh.

Andre delivers a measured and rational reaction to the Cardinal's conviction and all you can do is spit bile. I can just hear you and the rest of the mob screaming "Crucify Him!!!!"

You would have made an excellent Pharisee.

David said...

And not a word of condemnation from you, either, Adolf.

What is it that attracts the religious to sexual abuse of children? And why won't their coreligionists condemn them?

You would have made an excellent Pharisee.

What a horrid, anti-semitic thing to say, Adolf. I see you still subscribe to the "Jews killed Jesus" school of Christianity. Even the Catholics have moved on from that.





Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Well David, you can be confident it was not the Nazis who killed Jesus.

You do go on about kiddie fiddling. I don't recall your outrage over the many scout leaders who have been turfed out for such offending.

David said...

from the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Sex Abuse.

Almost 2,500 survivors were abused in an institution managed by the Catholic Church.

Many adult perpetrators of abuse held roles associated with positions of leadership, power and authority.

You still refuse to condemn your fellow xtians for abuse, trying to drag in other bodies, eg, Scouts. I guess, unlike me, you have never been a Scout, or in my case, Venturer Leader.

Cub Scout Promise

On my honour,
I promise that I will do my best,
To do my duty to my God, and
To Australia


Scout Promise

I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to my God and
To the Queen of Australia,
To help other people, and
To live by the Scout Law


There's that pesky god again, leading leaders astray and helping boys be abused.

Now, where are you going to deflect to this time?

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Long on rhetoric and short on history Andrei........... Ever been to see a chambre de Inquisiteur in either France or Spain. Ever wondered why the French developed a taste for snails and Frogslegs. Ever heard of tithe to the church while people starved to death.

Orginised religion has been base on power, commerce and fear since the Nicaea conference 385AD.

Andrei said...

"Long on rhetoric and short on history Andrei......."

And yet you gleefully report about "the enlightened" that


"... they rounded up all the corrupt landowning Clergy who had been screwing, sometimes literally, the peasantry of all ages for 200 years and barged them out into the middle of the river with their hands tied and then sunk the barge"

This was in the days when madam guillotine was operating flat out every day slicing the heads off of those "the enlightened" decided were inconvienant to their agenda and should be dispatched

The thing about Cardinal Pell of course is that he was a leading voice for social conservativism and a thorn in the side of "the enlightened" of our times who do not have recourse to drowning him along with his supporters in the Murray River or deftly removing his head from his shoulders they way you and David would love no doubt to see happen

In our "enlightened times" we use the media and courts to assassinate those who place obstacles in the way of the "progressive" agenda.

Most if not all of the evidence against the Cardinal is in fact anonymous accusations bought by a jury which in itself may have been hand picked after the original jury that heard the case couldn't agree on his guilt

This is no different from Soviet show trials or the Salem witchcraft trials IMHO and I am far from convinced of his guilt in this matter

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Quite so, Andrei. Aided and abetted all along the way by the appalling ABC and Fairfax.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Andrei....Lets see if I have this right, the people who set in motion the Medieval Inquisition, The Spanish Inquisition, The Papal Inquisition and the Portuguese Inquisition that tortured and murdered thousands of people in the name of the Holy Roman Church are actually the good guys...right?

The Clergy who acted as the royal tax collectors and watched their parishioners starve while their own tables were overflowing were acting in the public interest.....yes?

This is the same church that worked hand in glove with the Nazis in order to protect their wealth and power is it not........no wonder you and Adolf feel such spiritual enlightenment when visiting the shrine of the skyfairy.

David said...

Still not a single word from Andrei or Adolf condemning the sexual abuse of children by their coreligionists. Seems they are OK with priestly fuckers.

And Adolf has now run away from trying to excuse the sins of the church by pointing to the sins of the Scouts, a body that demands religious faith prior to membership.

You know, if you accepted that there was something rotten in your churches, if you vowed to make changes to prevent it happening again, god will not smite you, but children may thank you.

Stop enabling abuser priests and start standing up for the children. It's the right thing to do.



Psycho Milt said...

The thing about Cardinal Pell of course is that he was a leading voice for social conservativism and a thorn in the side of "the enlightened" of our times...

Four legs good! Two legs bad!

The Veteran said...

Andrei ... you will need to sustain your 'handpicked jury' accusation ... clearly you mean handpicked as in order to get a conviction. The system doesn't work like that. In Victoria (where the trial took place) both the prosecution and defence have the right to challenge and stand-down prospective jurors without giving reasons.

The verdict was unanimous.

Pell is not the Church and the Church is not Pell. Embarrassing yes but the Church (all churches) are bigger than that.

Andrei said...

"The system doesn't work like that. In Victoria (where the trial took place) both the prosecution and defence have the right to challenge and stand-down prospective jurors without giving reasons. "

Exactly and you can guarantee were someone like myself be in the pool of potential jurors that the prosecution would have me out...

... because given the entirity of the evidence against the Cardinal is the accusations of two gentlemen and that it is from actions allegedly commited more than tweenty years ago I would want to know the susbsequent history and character of the accusers

There have been two prosecutions in NZ of false accusations against the church. In both cases the accused was a brother who was actually guilty of these sins but of the claiments who were actually pupils of school at the same time he was there. Their motivation the payout the Church gave to the victims

There are agendas here Veteran and "British Justice" is not as perfect as you might think

Where there are agendas there is always deceit and skullduggery

You no nothing about the accusers and never will and yet accept their claims without question

David said...

Andrei, you know nothing about the accusers, yet you reject their claims out of hand. I prefer to listen to the jury, you know, the people who heard the evidence and decided based on that, and that alone.



Anonymous said...

"Andrei, you know nothing about the accusers, yet you reject their claims out of hand"

No I don't David

The fundamental principle of British Justice is Guilty Beyond Reasonable Doubt, a high bar to be met

And a defendant does not have to prove his or her innocence, the accusers have to prove his or her guilt Beyond Reasonable Doubt!-

Furthermore the reliabilty and credibilty of any prosection witness is important in determining the weight to give their evidence

I think it is very dangerous to convict anyone soley on the basis of witness testimony of events from more than twenty years ago - very dangerous indeed! Human memory is faulty and people lie and exaggerate

This is a case where significant political agendas are in play and that should raise any thinking persons scepticism antennae

The good Cardinal may be guilty, I personally don't think he is but I have not been shown compelling evidence that he is and nor has anyone else as far as I can see

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Andrei, you've nailed it.

David prefers a kangaroo court where all the right evidence is presented by any Tom, Dick or David, while exculpatory evidence is carefully held back.

Psycho Milt said...

The good Cardinal may be guilty, I personally don't think he is but I have not been shown compelling evidence that he is and nor has anyone else as far as I can see

Well, apart from a jury of his peers, that is. And they do think he's guilty, which is what counts.

This is a case where significant political agendas are in play...

Sure, but that cuts both ways. Pell and the rest of the church leadership will have been calling in favours left, right and centre to try and make this go away.

Andrei said...

LOL Milt

A "jury of his peers" would mean Bishops of the Church - instead he got a jury drawn at best from the sheep of society such as yourself

Time and time again you hace shown how easily you are led by nose by "progressives" who do not have your welfare at heart

It is almost amazing that you quoted Orwell in a comment above considering that you sould actually be a sheep in the work from which from which it is extracted

I mean you believe the Global warming cultists, that two men can marry one another, that that people born with vaginas and functioning ovaries can be men...

In other words your connection with reality is somewhat tenuous at times.

If the powers that be tell you something is so you will go along with it i.e. a sheep

David said...

Andrei and Adolf, two peas in a pod, think that the legal system is a left/right matter when it is actually a matter of truth and justice.

Adolf even thinks the jury was handpicked by fairfax and the ABC - just how lower can he go?

Andrei, well he's just a dumb sheep, led by the nose by by men who wear dresses and still call themselves men!

Psycho Milt said...

A "jury of his peers" would mean Bishops of the Church...

Er, no - we ditched the estates when we introduced universal adult suffrage. Any adult member of society is the equal of George Pell, and few would have any interest in going back to a society in which that wasn't true.

I mean you believe the Global warming cultists, that two men can marry one another, that that people born with vaginas and functioning ovaries can be men...

Well, you got me on the first two: the science is in on global warming, and it doesn't support conservatives' wishful thinking on the subject; and the word "marry" means whatever society wants it to mean. However, I strongly object to being accused of the third one - adult female humans are not "men" under any definition of the word "men" that actually means something. Like trans-rights activists, you're conflating sex and gender in a way that serves only to confuse.

Andrei said...

Actually Milt the fact you believe those things are true just shows how easily manipulated you are and how incapable you are of independant thought

"you're conflating sex and gender in a way that serves only to confuse" is of course pure double talk designed to "confuse" - a slogan to parroted when someone shows the absurdity pregnant "men"

The reality is that what happened between the two accusers and the Cardinal more than twenty years ago is a truth known only to God and will be revealed to all on the Day of Judgment and anyone who claims to know better is a hubristic fool

For us mere mortals the real truth of this matter is unknowable as is the future direction of the Earth's climate and much else besides

Psycho Milt said...

From my perspective, the fact people give credence to religious superstition shows how easily manipulated and incapable of independent thought they are. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, as the great Sly Stone put it.

For us mere mortals the real truth of this matter is unknowable...

Indeed. But we're willing to settle for a jury convinced beyond reasonable doubt and a robust appeals process, and so far no-one's come up with a better suggestion.

...as is the future direction of the Earth's climate...

Many things that are unknowable can nevertheless have evidence-based assessments of likely scenarios worked out, which should then be taken into account in planning. Any country's military general staff do this regularly, based on far less information than politicians have available to them about climate change.