Monday, July 15, 2019


The link to to the BBC Panorama investigation is here    Of course the BBC, as the linchpin of the GRW anti-Labour meme, is to be distrusted and dismissed.

Make up your own minds.  


Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

The Labour party like the Conservative party is about to implode. They are accidents looking for a reason to happen.

They both have moved from the safety of the centre ground to the left and right wing extremes which leaves the Lib dems holding he centre ground and the moral high ground.

Most people are centrists, middle class in their views and attitudes and have enough of a grasp of history to realise how dangerous the the extremes of politics are.

Fortunately the young, who are swayed by extreme policies, grow up quickly.

Psycho Milt said...

I watched the video. Looks like the right of the party shares the right's view that support for the Palestinians equates to anti-Semitism. The Israeli lobby has been very successful in promoting that view, even the BBC takes it as a default position these days.

Interesting to note how effective it is. Here, when similar bullshit was directed at Golriz Ghahraman last week, the Green Party immediately issued a humiliating apology for having offended the Israeli lobby, even though there was nothing to apologise for. It must have been annoying to have to do that, but it killed the story. The UK Labour Party chose to fight the accusations, and the result is the propaganda has been a huge success, such that the BBC is participating in it.

gravedodger said...

I have watched some of it and my take from what I have viewed is widespread anti semitism as a big plank in the pro Palestinian stance of the UK socialists.
Livingston and Corbyn are joined at the hip on this and it is disgusting manipulation with the takeover of the once 'independent' complaints process particularly as it is applied to many members who identify as "Jewish".

To allow such anti semitism to be allowed due to an opposition to Israel moves to secure its continued existence in the face of Arab financed terrorist attacks from neighbouring territory is just plain wrong unless one is a racist and that is where Corbyn, livingston et al are sitting.

The Veteran said...

C'mon Milt ... you're better than that. Why in your mind were those interviewed to be labelled as being on the right of the the Labour Party. The alternative view might be that they were loyal Labour Party members doing their job as they saw fit undermined by Corbyn's Praetorian Guard who clearly think Hitler was a pussy.

A view shared by Tom Watson, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party.

As for Golly Gosh ... if the Greens fall below 5% come election time they will know who to blame.

Psycho Milt said...

Why in your mind were those interviewed to be labelled as being on the right of the the Labour Party.

1. Because support for Israel's Apartheid project tends to come from the right.
2. Because anti-Corbyn propaganda tends to come from the right.

Psycho Milt said... take from what I have viewed is widespread anti semitism as a big plank in the pro Palestinian stance of the UK socialists.

Ironic that you then go on to display intense dislike of Palestinians as a big plank in your pro-Israel stance then, isn't it?

The Veteran said...

Milt ... so they were not people trying to do their job to the best of their ability but rather part of the GRW anti-Corbyn conspiracy.

As I said, Tom Watson takes a different view and he is in a position to know.

Psycho Milt said...

Er, yes - the leader of the anti-Corbyn faction in Labour shares the right-wing view of this, which is one reason I wrote that anti-Corbyn propaganda tends to come from the right. Watson would love to see a massive electoral defeat for Labour because it would help his faction depose Corbyn and restore post-Blair business as usual. So he's a great help to Labour's enemies but not someone who has any credibity on the left.

The Veteran said...

PM ... your 11.24 reinforces to me the view expressed by Egbut (erstwhile Labour supporter but now exhibiting Lib-Dem tendencies) in his 9.40 comment that the UK Labour Party is about to implode.

Psycho Milt said...

Wouldn't be the first time - that's why there even is a Lib Dem party.

The people in UK Labour aren't self-interested enough to be able to emulate the Tories' ability to be completely dysfunctional and devoting themselves almost entirely to internal civil war, while also maintaining the pretence of forming a coherent entity.

Kimbo said...

Tend to agree with Milt. One complains she joined Labour to debate policy on issues like rent, jobs etc and encountered people who wanted to deal with Israel and Palestine. Rewind 40 years ago and the same objection was made about the supposed irrelevant issue of apartheid South Africa.

The statement from the top was unequivocal- they don’t tolerate anti Semitism. But that will never be satisfactory for the Likud schills, much less those who equate support for a Palestinian state and are critical of Israeli policy. Neither of which are, nor need be anti Semitic in and of themselves. Hell, I’ve even heard Israelis criticise the idea of the Zionist Jewish state as presently how can Gentiles be anti Semitic if they say the same?!

The Veteran said...

PM ... Labour grew out of Liberal Party rather than the other way round. As for dysfunction and civil war and its a feature of both the Conservative and Labour Parties per courtesy of Brexit but, for Labour, exacerbated by Corbyn who appears only slightly to the right of your garden variety Trotskyst with a bit of 'healthy' Jew baiting thrown in for good measure.

The Veteran said...

Kimbo ... 'statement from the top' ... a Corbyn acolyte. Meanwhile Tom Watson has a quite different view and he's Corbyn's Deputy. Are you arguing that he's one of your Likud shills?

BTW 'she' is a Labour Party MP. Jobs, rent etc are/were central tenants of Labour. She was arguing that the Corbynistas have highjacked the Party to pursue a pro-Palestine anti Israel agenda.

Psycho Milt said...

Sorry, should have expressed that more clearly. The Liberal Party has been around a long time, but the Social Democrat Party split off from Labour in the early 80s (I think because it was Neil Kinnock who was too left for them back then). It's the "Dem" part of the Lib Dems that exists due to Labour infighting.

Your remark about Jew-baiting is pretty much the level of analysis that right-wingers have brought to this, but does help make clear that it is about propaganda rather than reality.

The Veteran said...

Milt ... the way Corbyn and his acolytes have dealt with the issue leads inevitably to the conclusion that Jew baitiing is alive and well within the hard left of the Labour Party.

Psycho Milt said...

It may have inevitably led you to that conclusion, but it led me only to the conclusion that PR isn't their strong point (and I'd be disappointed if it was their strong point).

I've still seen no credible basis for these allegations of anti-semitism, which leads "inevitably" to the conclusion that it's propaganda bullshit from the Labour right.

Kimbo said...

Yes, the Veteran. I’m very aware of what she was arguing. Just as opposing apartheid in South Africa was a central tenet of Labour parties worldwide, in addition to jobs, rent etc. So if she is pushing a false dichotomy that British Labour has no business speaking up about, say, illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank then it should alert you to some problems in her analysis...and maybe those of whom she accuses of dirty tricks aren’t the only ones trying to skew British Labour policy by underhand and dishonest means.

Kimbo said...

@ The Veteran

Not sure I’d rely on Tom Watson’s judgement for much. How can you take seriously a guy who wants to exclude people who are accused on anti-Semitism? So much for the natural justice of being able to answer your accuser!

The Veteran said...

Kimbo ... since when have parties on the extreme right and extreme left of the political spectrum ever been concerned about natural justice ... and right now there is a battle for the soul of the Labour Party split between the Corbanistas and the moderates (or Blairites as Milt would have it with the Corbynistas in the accendancy.

Kimbo said...

@ The Veteran

Yeah, nah, I’m still guessing that the tacit false premise of your irrelevant analysis is that support for a Palestinian state, and robust criticism of some/many of Likud-governed Israel’s policies automatically equals anti-Semitism. Would be interesting to see Corbyn’s accusers put under the same blow torch that thePanorama programme attempted, by being interrogated until they answered in detail and with examples of what is valid criticism of, and action against the Netanyahu administration? Maybe instead of postulating about the battle for the soul of a foreign political party you would like to have a go supplying answers. After all, The NZ National Party isn’t a haven for extremists yet similar accusation of anti-Semitism was made when NZ co-sponsored UNSC2334.

Psycho Milt said...

... and right now there is a battle for the soul of the Labour Party split between the Corbanistas and the moderates

At last - if we correct the misspelling of Corbyn and accept that, to a conservative, the right of the Labour party look like "moderates", a statement about UK Labour that's actually true. Of course, given that the Conservative Party is actually in power and therefore has far more effect on the UK than Labour does, I'm far more interested in the battle for the soul of that party, a battle between comically unscrupulous charlatans (the Brexiteers) and what I'd call "moderates." At this point, the "moderates" are getting their arses so thoroughly kicked it looks like unscrupulous charlatans will be running both the USA and the UK very soon - look out world, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

" tacit false premise of your irrelevant analysis"....this is the type of bollocky pseudo gobbledygook speak that plagues Chunters post. But its' also a cert that it's computer generated.

What he means is that your argument is not correct but it doesn't matter anyway.

Makes Dodgers posts look like speed reading material.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Sorry, my apologies, what I should have said is......The culmination of the progressionist speech for which Chunter laboured was often criticism, bored expressions, and, sometimes, outright rejection; thus, after unsuccessful revisions and heartfelt considerations, I came to a conclusion: no radical idea, however expertly or clumsily delivered and written, will be unanimously accepted; instead, radical ideas will often encounter criticism without constructive comment, but this fact does not negate our responsibility to write them and take a stand.

Roj Blake said...

Denying the Shoa = anti semitism

Blaming "The Jooze" for bad things = antisemitism.

Painting swastikas on Synagogues = antisemitism.

Believing the Jews control world finance = antisemitism.

Crucifying Jesus was possibly antisemitism.

These are undeniable.

Criticising Israel's government and its apartheid and genocide is not antisemitism.

Prohibiting male circumcision where the Mohel performs the Bris orally is not antisemitism.

Spot the difference.

Jermy Corbyn is despised by some in the UK, not because he is antisemitic, but because he does not play their game. He envisions a Britain with more for the people, less for the already rapacious wealthy.

No one from the UK Right has the balls to stand up to Trump.

Telling four Congresswomen of colour to “go back” is racist. But the Tory leadership candidates can’t bring themselves to say so.

We should stand up to Donald Trump, not pander to him for a sweetheart trade deal which would put our NHS at risk.

The Veteran said...

PM ... thank you for pointing out my mistake. I am not convinced that the the UK will go to hell in a handcart if/when Brexit happens. As for charlatans and no-one would think of the nice Mr Corbyn as a charlatan ... would they?

Egbut ... luv your 4.00 am.

Kimbo said...

@ The Veteran

And yet I note you’ve avoided answering the question - with specific examples - can one avoid anti-Semitism yet also be pro-Palestinian and critical of Netanyahu’s policies?

But hey, I can see given you are ducking the question why you would far prefer if Corbyn is interrogated with variations on “have you stopped beating your wife?”

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Roj Blake

It wuz the Jooz wot crucified Jesus. I guess you's classify president Xi as a Sinophobe.

Psycho Milt said...

Veteran: apologies for correcting your spelling. My inner pedant couldn't face writing that the sentence was true when it had a spelling mistake in it. Very powerful adversary of my conscious mind, that inner pedant...