Monday, April 8, 2019

COMPLETE AND UTTER OVER-REACTION

The news that ANZAC Day services are being cancelled (or merged) on the advice of the Police is a complete over-reaction to the events in Christchurch.

In agreeing to that you are handing the terrorist a victory,    You are acknowledging that a deranged psychopath has the ability to control events and, in doing so, you are dishonouring the memory of the very people ANZAC Day is all about.

They went and did their duty.   Many did not return.   The very least we can do is to honour them in the way we always have.    RNZRSA should not be cowered.   RNZRSA should not take the easy route.   RNZRSA should stand firm and say enough is enough.   Christchurch happened, we acknowledge that, but ANZAC Day is sacred to us and we refuse to allow a killer behind bars to dictate how we honour our military past and present.

Easter precedes ANZAC Day.   Are the Police also going to suggest that Easter services, normally well attended, be canned or somehow merged?    This nonsense must stop. 

54 comments:

Andrei said...

Our masters a giving Tarrant exactly what he wanted.

The danger of terrorism at Anzac day services this year is almsot exactly the same as it was last year.

The Mosque attack was a "black swan" and our reaction to it has now gone way over over the top.

Bad shit does happen unfortunately - we are lucky, in a lot of places events like that are almost everyday occurrences

Noel said...

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/anzac-day-service-cancelled-terrorism-threat-level-remains-high-after-christchurch-attacks

Risk assessment vehicle attack.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

You would think if the police know about a specific threat (Matakana) of a vehicle attack they might have some idea of the likely perpetrator's identity. Could they not round up every person on their watch lists and hold them until a week after Anzac Day? Could they not station a platoon of armed infantrymen at the Matakana service with orders to shoot the driver of any vehicle involved in an attack?

Psycho Milt said...

Blame George W. Bush. All this "Terrorist threat level remains at Ultra-Superlative" bullshit is a direct legacy of the Americans' inability to cope with having it proven to them that darkies can kill them as well as vice versa. ANZAC parades are no more exempt from the bullshit than any other events of the last few weeks.

Psycho Milt said...

Could they not station a platoon of armed infantrymen at the Matakana service with orders to shoot the driver of any vehicle involved in an attack?

I'm not sure that the nation's remembrance services would be enhanced by every one featuring a bunch of heavily-armed men charged with shooting up any suspicious vehicle.

Johno said...

"Blame George W. Bush"

Lol. Even dumber than "Blame Helen Clark"

Gerald said...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/kids/other/300-hate-messages-sent-to-anzac-service-organiser-after-cancellation/ar-BBVIpSL?li=BBqdg4K

Did yah communicate your concern Veteran?

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

The chances of such an attack in NZ are very remote so one assumes that the police have watch list of potentials given that they and the spooks have been concentrating on Muslims and let the ultra right and white suprematists slip under the radar.

It would be good if the police gave a reason for this decision and convince the public it was not done out of budget considerations, empire building or knee jerking.

We must be guided by the security people no matter how unpalatable it is. There is nothing stopping people going out to the suburbs or country areas to attend parades.

My main concern is the Gallipoli service where where there is security at the service but it is non existent outside. Erdagon stirred up a shitstorm by showing the vids of CHC and in a country of 80 million there has to be a couple of lone wolves with AK's.

If the Gallipoli service was cancelled it would serve two purposes. In would show that the "send them home in coffins" remark was unacceptable, just as Peters remarks about Muslims was unacceptable, in order to win votes by creating a climate of fear.

Secondly it would have a economic impact on the Pazarli Köyü, Gelibolu and Çanakkale economies that would reverberate all the way to Istanbul.

Quite simply the risk is 1000 times higher there than here and I would try and convince anyone going not to.



James said...

How many platoons of infantry do you think NZ actually has?

We have two regular (full time) battalions, both understrength. 1 RNZIR in Linton has only a single company, so three rifle platoons, and 2/1 in Burngam has three understrength companies, so 9 rifle platoons in theory but about half a dozen in reality.

So 12 infantry platoons, all of whom would actually rather attend Anzac Day services to remember their forebears and comrades lost in action.

And how many small towns like Matakana does NZ have?

The Veteran said...

Gerald ... fucking (and I don't usually write that word in full but I'm making an exception for you) cheap shot and of course I didn't. Interesting that the Police now say they've have received no threats to any ANZAC Day services.

Egbut is spot on with his comment about 'knee jerk' reactions.

George said...

Why don't they use the military to escort the ANZAC parades.
They have quite a bit of experience in the field

James said...

Lots of people are proposing using the military to provide security for the parades.

Several problems with this:
1 - NZDF is tiny, with only about 9 regular Force infantry platoons (you wouldn’t want to use anything else for security, maybe the one or two RNZAF Force Protection troops), so that would be a maximum of about a dozen parades to be ‘protected’.
2 - NZDF pers, especially infantry, would surely rather participate in the parade to remember their fallen comrades in Afghanistan and East Timor, and their forebears in previous conflicts
3 - if you ignored points 1 and 2 above, what rules of engagement are they going to use? Are they to be armed? It’s very much the job of Police to provide domestic security, not our vastly underfunded and misunderstood NZDF

The Veteran said...

Those who suggest using the military to provide protection at ANZAC Day parades have lost the plot too. Were were we to do you (and James has quite rightly pointed out the issues around that) we would be handing the terrorist another victory.

We should not get spooked over this. What happened happened and yes, there's always the chance of some copycat reaction, but we need to keep events in perspective. I would much rather be living in New Zealand rather than the UK where the threat level from international terrorism is currently assessed as 'Severe' and where life goes on as normal.

David said...

I would much rather be living in New Zealand rather than the UK where the threat level from international terrorism is currently assessed as 'Severe' and where life goes on as normal.

Which makes me wonder what is the point of announced "threat levels"? I know the answer, it is just security theatre, so in the unlikely chance of an attack the spooks can say "well, we did warn you."

As to ANZAC parades, cancel the bloody lot. It is a day of Jingoism and drunkenness, punctuated by peacocks strutting around in uniforms and medals. It is a day for pretending to be heroes and brainwashing the next generation of canon fodder. The quiet reflection of November 11 is a better way to remember the waste of war.

I am forever amazed at the tolerance of the Turks, having their nation invaded each year by drunken yobs celebrating ?

Could you imagine the reaction of Australians if on 19th February each year thousands of drunken Japanese arrived in Darwin to celebrate Australia's biggest defeat on home soil?

The Veteran said...

David ... clearly you have never been to Gallipoli on ANZAC Day ... or any other day. 'Drunken yobs' ... only in your bitter view of life. My experience is that the many who go there are reverently respectful ... but of course I'm sure you'll be able to dredge up some isolated incident to 'prove' your point.

You are of course entitled to your views re ANZAC Day which commemorates, in part, that freedom you enjoy to express those views. A freedom many died for. But I don't expect you to acknowledge that.

David said...

You are of course entitled to your views re ANZAC Day which commemorates, in part, that freedom you enjoy to express those views. A freedom many died for. But I don't expect you to acknowledge that.

Yes, that is the usual BS.

ANZAC Day began as a commemoration of events in The Great War, The War To End All Wars (how did that work out) and that was a war over trade and commerce. It was never about "FREEDOM!". It was about Britain maintaining its Empire over Germany's desire to build an Empire. Life would have continued as usual, had Germany prevailed. Perhaps the reparations Germany forced on France would have led to another war, or maybe the Germans would have been a less punitive victor. Who knows.

And please, oh great one, explain to me how my freedom was affected by the wars fought during my lifetime.

How was I at risk from Koreans? Vietnamese? Iranians? Afghans? Syrians? Seems to me that in each of those cases it was "our side" denying freedoms to others.

And that's without all the CIA orchestrated over throws of legitimate national governments, that although our two nations did not participate, we stood on the sidelines and cheered, just as you have been doing with Venezuela.

War is a racket.


James said...

Vet, and David

Speaking as a (more contemporary) veteran myself, I actually share David’s concern about soldiers becoming drunken yobbos on Anzac Day. It is something I caution my soldiers on before the day itself, it is a poor way to remember our fallen mates and those who have gone before us.

The rest of David’s concerns are the usual left wing tripe that I won’t signify with a response.

The Veteran said...

David ... so you're unable to reference your comment re drunken yobs at Gallipoli ... figures.

James ... good that you're doing that. My experience, albeit from some time back is that there were very few who ever let the side down while in uniform. I seldom go to RSAs but my observation is that the drinking culture in RSAs has changed markedly over recent years.

The Veteran said...

and David ... the Venezuelan Government ain't legitimate. Can't be when a top UN official sez it isn't.

Oooops, threadjacking my own post. Don't bother responding.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

What do other nations do? Just after the Nice truck attack we had our world dance and music festival at a nearby town. I was impressed how quickly it was thought out and how cost effective.

Ten blocks of concrete measuring a cubic metre with a ring bolt cast in and three or four big front end loaders (Manitou). Whenever there was a parade of which there were several over the 6 days these machines would scurry around and drop these blocks on all access roads where a vehicle could develop a bit of speed and then park at an angle behind them...simple. When finished store them for next year.

The first year we had six French Paras in battlefield order patrolling, mean looking buggers and two of them were Nth African. I think the Festival organisers dissuaded the powers that be that the local Gendarmerie could handle it and the sight of armed
soldiers was not doing the tourism industry much good.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

I'm afraid Davids ill thought out post is not left wing, just a mish mash of "war is terrible and I'll fight anyone who disagrees" and trying compress a 100 years of history into a coherent paragraph....fail.

In his defence there have been many incidences of drunken and offensive behaviour in campgrounds and surrounding Turkish towns over the years. Gallipoli is up there on the must do list along with the bulls at Pampalona and Munich beer festival and some of the morons treat the events as the same....a chance to drink cheap beer get pissed and misbehave.

David said...

Anzac Day is over for another year, and this year, for the first time, we've been sobered not by the ritual of what the day represents but by the spectre of what the day could become.

This year we've seen TV footage of the tonnes of rubbish left on the hillsides by Australian patriots with a hunger for fast food and a reluctance to take their rubbish with them. We've seen images of the enormous video screens used to bombard the crowd with hits by the Bee Gees, James Taylor (what has HE got to do with Anzac Day?) and Eric Clapton (likewise).

Canada's National Post on Tuesday described the Gallipoli crowd as "young people who spent much of the weekend drinking and partying at a camp-out near the site of Australia's most significant losses of the First World War". They went on to label the event as a "piss-up that rivalled any major concert weekend". Isn't it great to see a leading overseas newspaper describe the event in such glowing terms?


https://www.theage.com.au/national/the-gold-diggers-land-on-gallipoli-20050428-ge0233.html

David said...

Veteran ... so you're unable to reference why my freedom was at risk from Koreans, Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis... figures.

Wayne Mapp said...

David,

You may be aware of terrorist attacks by Al Qaeda and ISIS in the US, UK, France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain, Indonesia and Australia. As well as almost all Middle Eastern nations. Quite a number of New Zealanders were killed in these attacks. The worst being September 11, closely followed by the ISIS attack on the Yazidi people.

That is how you have been threatened, and it is why two coalitions of around 50 nations decided to deal with Al Qaeda and ISIS. All authorised by UNSC resolutions.

Andrei said...

Very selective Dr Mapp - the bombing of Yugoslavia was not authorized by the United Nations nor was the 2003 invasion of Iraq nor the wanton destruction of Libya by NATO, a crime that will resonate down the ages.

Not to forget the atroicious acts of murder committed on a daily basis by remote control in Africa and the Middle East by brave American Warriors operating from air conditioned rooms Nevada who after a day of killing the poor in the Third World can unwind in the local casinos - wouldn't surprise me at all if more Muslims died today at the hands of these "heroic" men and women than died in the Christchurch Mosque atrocity.

But keep on telling yourself that the actions of the West are benign and good intentioned and are keeping you safe...

The Veteran said...

Shit oh dear oh dear David ... and you reference as your source an article written more than a decade ago ... did you think we wouldn't bother to look at the date.

Have you been to Gallipoli? ... I think not. I stand by my ascertain that those attending the ANZAC Day services do so with a certain degree of reverence ... but your meme is to knock that to fit your own prejudices.

You are indeed an angry and bitter person, mired in a 1920s class warfare mindset, and parading your vision of a socialist utopia under the Red Flag of your masters.

Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy said...

Among Major {retarded} Simon Strombons rantings after being challenged about the inappropriate inclusion of a Christchurch commemoration in his Anzac Day service is the statement: "More people died in Christchurch in a few minutes than all 37 Kiwi soldiers who died in Vietnam".

Therefore, in his view, their sacrifice counted as nothing.

I don't think that this reflects the thinking of our contemporary veterans but it is up to them and RNZRSA to deal with this contemptible statement.

As far as Viet Nam Veteran TTSS is concerned, Major [rtd]Simon Strombon is a cunt.

Judge Holden said...

Tinker Tailor Soldier Retard said: “Therefore, in his view, their sacrifice counted as nothing”. Really? Where did he say that? Stop making shit up. You’re the last cunt I would want to find myself next to in a foxhole. A shit for brains wanker you makes things up to smear his fellow veterans. Asshole.

David said...

Wayne Mapp, did Al Qaeda exist before or after the invasions of Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq Mk1?

Did ISIS exist before or after the invasion of Iraq Mk2?

Are Al Qaeda and ISIS states?

So, tell me again how my freedom was at threat from Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq.

Yes, I am aware of terrorist attacks by Al Qaeda and ISIS in the US, UK, France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain, Indonesia and Australia. I am also aware of cause and effect. Are you? Why were there no terror attacks by Al Qaeda in UK, France, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain, Indonesia and Australia until after the invasion of Iraq and the destruction of its civilian infrastructure?

I am sure that you are aware that 19 of the 9/11 terrorists were citizens of Saudi Arabia, yet SA seems to maintain its favoured nation status with The West. Why is that?


Andrei said...

Hang on Judge Holden - Anzac day is about honouring those serving in the military who sacrificed for this Nation.

It is not about making points about contempory issues involving non military

Nor does it matter whether or not you agree with the conflict in which they gave their lives - such things are irrelevant

We honour soldiers who served the Nation because they are the people who are willing to sacrifice their lives to preserve our way of life.

And in this regard it is appalling that we are modifiying our ceremonies honouring this sacrifice because of a low life mass murderer's way of acheiving his fifteen minutes of (in)fame(y)

We all should stand firm and show the world, and anyone likely to take inspiration from this looser, that we will not be cowed or intimidated.

David said...

Shit oh dear oh dear David ... and you reference as your source an article written more than a decade ago ... did you think we wouldn't bother to look at the date.

So in Veterans world, if it didn't happen today, it didn't happen at all.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

I fine demonstration of Sludge Holden's towering intellect and command of language.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Tinker...I don't think he meant in that manner, I thought he was trying to balance the hate mail he was getting with the perception of what his motives are. I have never viewed our casualties as "sacrifices" more like bad luck.

On ANZAC day in 1999 I was privileged to lay a wreath at the Cenotaph in London on behalf of the RNZRSA. After the ceremony we all trooped off to the service at Westminster Abbey (I gritted my teeth). Included as a part of the service were several Turkish soldiers who carried the Turkish flag into the Abbey stood at attention while the Anglican service was read and a stirring rendition of Now is the hour by a Maori choir.

It is time we stopped being so precious about ANZAC day and tried to be more inclusive, it is not a sacred day anymore than Gallipoli is sacred soil and we are rapidly being brainwashed into thinking that we were the only act on the stage.

Veteran...re date on Davids post. I have it on very good authority that things remain just the same except there are more idiots, outnumbered by Australians I might add.

Wayne.....Afghanistan was a NATO initiative. NATO is centred around mutual aid and an attack on one is an attack on all. The only country to activate that in all it's years was the US after 9/11....something that Trump would do well to remember after all his NATO posturing.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

"We honour soldiers who served the Nation because they are the people who are willing to sacrifice their lives to preserve our way of life."

More high sounding bollocks from Andrei who has not the first inkling about a soldiers motivations.

An Infantryman's job is to give the enemy the maximum opportunity to die for his country.

The Veteran said...

Judge ... and you've been in a foxhole??????????

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Well done Legbut. Straight out of the gospel according to George Patton.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Vet, if he has, it was long after the battle was lost.

Andrei said...

More high sounding bollocks from Andrei who has not the first inkling about a soldiers motivations.

An Infantryman's job is to give the enemy the maximum opportunity to die for his country.""


Well that too is "high sounding bollocks" from a movie though to be fair the script was adapted from George Patton's real life speeches we are told.

The thing is Egbut to lead people you have to inspire them - especially when it comes to dealing with hardship danger and facing difficult challenges.

This is why we honour the warriors of the past because they provide the example we must follow if we are to succeed in the future

And this is why canceling Anzac Day Commorations in the wake of the Christchurch Mosque atrocity is so very very wrong.

And as for people who had no connection whatsoever to do with the events in Christchurch needing councilling deal with the "trauma" well give me strength...

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Warriors of the past....give me strength, that sound like its straight from the Kremlins handbook on how to inspire the proletariat into throwing themselves on the barbed wire.

The greatest asset in the warriors kit is his spade and when you have seen 30 of those going like a magimix at the sound of the first incoming you may like to revaluate you pompous prose.

We have a security force we pay them to make decisions rightly or wrongly, it would be nuts to ignore them...particualy from an insurance angle....chill out one day you may even attend a parade.

Anonymous said...

The essence of the post is
"They went and did their duty. Many did not return. The very least we can do is to honour them in the way we always have."
What it has descended to in the comments is howler monkeys flinging dung around the cage.
Get a grip.

Mick

Wayne Mapp said...

Lord EN,

Afghanistan wasn't only a Nato initiative. Australia and NZ committed right from the start. Yes, the core of ISAF was Nato nations, which was not surprising. But about half the ISAF coalition were from outside Nato. Essentially a western coalition, with western meant in its wider sense.

David,

The 2003 Iraq invasion was a mistake, and is part of the reason for ISIS. Korea was a response to the North Korean invasion of 1950. Does North Korea literally threaten NZ, no. But New Zealand sees itself as part of the broader western coalition. We don't participate in all their missions. Iraq for instance (though we did ultimately send an engineer squadron). But we do participate in many as part of collective security.

You obviously want an isolationist approach, no doubt pulling out go Five Eyes.. That is certainly possible, but it would probably terminate much of the relationship NZ has with Australia. Maybe you think that is a price worth paying. After all Australia wouldn't cancel CER, at least not all of it. But it would probably end the right of New Zealand to live and work in Australia. We would be treated as all other immigrants.


Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Wayne ...how do you see the western coalition now with Trump trying to facture the EU and threatening NATO. Not to mention the damage to Aust and NZ economies with a trade war.

If NZ was located a 1000 miles north of it's present position we would not be in 5 eyes at all. Its our location they love not our Hobbits.

Pragmatism dictates that with the shift in world power we should shift as well.

David said...

The 2003 Iraq invasion was a mistake, and is part of the reason for ISIS.

Yes, cause and effect. Iraq was no threat to us, but now ISIS is. And yet not one, not a single person responsible for that debacle has been held to account. The war criminals Bush, Blair and Howard walk free.

Korea was a response to the North Korean invasion of 1950.

Which was a response the the US preventing the Koreans from setting their own future, free of colonial masters. There you have cause and effect.

You obviously want an isolationist approach, no doubt pulling out go Five Eyes.

Five Eyes is a way for each nation to get around the prohibitions on surveillance of citizens. NZ has a high bar for spying on its own, but any of the other four eyes can do the job and then pass on the information obtained.

But it would probably end the right of New Zealand to live and work in Australia. We would be treated as all other immigrants.

Kiwis are currently treated like no other immigrants. They are the only immigrant group that is barred from Australian citizenship. Monday night the ABC's Four Corners covered Chines influence in Australia, including a part about Chines communists buying access to ministers and citizenship. No matter how much money you have, Mr Mapp, you will never become an Australian citizen.

Noel said...

Wayne we are now treated the same as any other immigrant in Australia. SCV no longer
gives any entitlement over other immigrants on the other side of the ditch.

Wayne Mapp said...

David,

Pretty sure you are wrong about NZers qualifying to become citizens/permanent residents of Australia. They have to meet the same criteria as all the immigrants in regards to qualifications, etc. So no special disadvantage there.

The special advantage we have is that any of us can go to Australia permanently and work on an unrestricted basis. No-one from any other country can do that.

As for North Korea and 1950, your narrative is not correct. North Korea, on an unprovoked basis, invaded South Korea. Same as Saddam invading Kuwait.

Gerald said...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/12/it-really-hurts-the-new-zealanders-in-australia-locked-out-of-the-system

David said...

@Wayne Mapp.

Eligible New Zealand citizen
You are an eligible New Zealand citizen, or protected SCV holder, if you:

were in Australia on 26 February 2001 on a SCV
spent at least 12 months in Australia on a SCV in the 2 years immediately before 26 February 2001, or
have a Centrelink certificate from before 26 February 2004 that shows you were living in Australia


https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/entering-and-leaving-australia/new-zealand-citizens/pathway-to-permanent-resident-and-citizenship

So, any Kiwi arriving in Australia after the above dates is barred from Australian citizenship, barred from unemployment benefits, can never vote in an Australian election. But are still obliged to pay income tax. John Key raised it with Tony Abbott, Jacinda Ardern with Malcolm Turnbull, but kiwis are still a "special case".

NZ treated me far better when I lived there for 11 years than Oz treats my Kiwi partner when we returned here in 2012.

Noel said...

Son was working in Aust 4 years ago and put his CV out to give agencies and got a job in two weeks. Been two months this time and nothing.

Wayne Mapp said...

David,

You only have half the information.

The conditions that you have set out mean that all New Zealanders in Aus prior to 26 Feb 2001 can become citizens, irrespective of qualifications, etc.

What you have ignored is that New Zealanders arriving after that date can become citizens, but only on the same rules as all other immigrants.

David said...

You're right Wayne, I left a bit out.

Apply for Australian citizenship

You can apply for citizenship if you are an:

Australian permanent resident, or
eligible New Zealand citizen


No Kiwis arriving after 2001 are eligible.

Regulations were dramatically changed in 2001 by The Family and Community Services Legislation Amendment (New Zealand Citizens) Bill 2001 which categorizes New Zealanders who arrived in Australia after 26 February 2001 as non-protected special visa holders. That makes them ineligible for many social security benefits. Those New Zealanders can stay in Australia indefinitely but without any civic rights (they cannot vote in any Government elections) or route to citizenship. More than 175,000 people – or 47 per cent of the New Zealanders living in Australia – are thought to be affected by the law, which has been labelled "discriminatory" by campaigners.[7]

I would have though that as an MP you would have known that.

Wayne Mapp said...

I checked the relevant websites, and they tell a different story. Qualified NZers can apply for Aus citizenship.

David said...

aND THAT BRINGS US FULL CIRCLE, BACK TO THE QUALIFICATION RULES;

You are an eligible New Zealand citizen, or protected SCV holder, if you:

were in Australia on 26 February 2001 on a SCV
spent at least 12 months in Australia on a SCV in the 2 years immediately before 26 February 2001, or
have a Centrelink certificate from before 26 February 2004 that shows you were living in Australia

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/entering-and-leaving-australia/new-zealand-citizens/pathway-to-permanent-resident-and-citizenship

Key & Turnbull negotiated a minor change to permit Kiwis who have lived resided in Australia for five years or more and during that time earned income in excess of the temporary skills migration income threshold, which is about $54,000 a year.

Even that still sets Kiwis apart from all other immigrants.

David said...

Sorry, Caps lock error, was not intending to be shouty. :-)

Anonymous said...

David is correct regarding Kiwis in OZ.
However, if you cross the ditch on a SCV (visa), and set yourself up with a job, etc, in practice, you will never get Australian Citizenship as you are already there on an SCV.
To get citizenship, you need to apply for a standard visa first and follow the same process as any other foreigner. It will cost you @ $1800 and a wait of 2 years with no guarantee of success.

Oddball