Friday, March 15, 2019

CHRISTCHURCH SHOOTING


Just as the assault against James Shaw (and any politician) is an attack against democracy so the Christchurch Mosque shooting is an attack against all of us.

Regretfully there will be some low life pond dwellers who will argue differently.

That's the penalty we pay for living in a free society.

100 comments:

Andrei said...

It is terrorism pure and simple

David said...

How simplistic, Andrei.

A man who punches a politician is mentally ill, a man who shoots up a mosque is a terrorist. How convenient for. But let's wait a little while, shall we, and see the real motivation.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

I see the death toll is reported at 27. My greatest misgiving is that some smart lawyer, funded by taxpayers, will successfully argue that the perpetrator was mentally ill at the time.

Anonymous said...

One of the few times I will agree with the PM, the shooter has no place in NZ.

It does sound like terrorism if reports are correct the shooter is Australian.

Paranormal

Andrei said...

Multiple fatalities involving innocent people going about their lawful business, Automatic weapons, IEDs, city in lockdown with four in custody that bears no comparison to a black eye David.

Whole different ballpark

David said...

Just as the assault against James Shaw (and any politician) is an attack against democracy so the Christchurch Mosque shooting is an attack against all of us.

Sorry Veteran, but as tragic as the Mosque shootings are, it is not an attack "against all of us", it is an attack on a very distinct group, Muslims. Not all believers. Not atheists. Not cricketers. Just Muslims. We can speculate as to why that is, but I prefer to leave speculation to the two A's who post here.

I see the attack on James Shaw as an attack on all of us, because James Shaw represents our collectively elected government. He is us.

I know the Hagley Mosque well, I lived on the other side of Hagley Park and often walked past the mosque on my morning exercise or on my way to Westfield. They were a quiet and peaceful bunch of worshippers, just don't try getting a taxi in ChCh during Fajr, it always seemed as every cab in town was parked at the mosque. :-)

Condolences and sympathies to those whose lives have been destroyed by violence, whatever the motivation.

Noel said...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213076

Yes David an Australian.
Don't worry we will deport him eventually.

David said...

Yes Noel, Brenton Tarrant, a Right Wing White Supremacist Australian.

Claiming to represent “millions of European and other ethno-nationalist peoples”, he said “we must ensure the existence of our people, and a future for white children”.

I am sure there are many who will be saying "You know, there were good people on both sides. He has already attracted a fan base of other wannabes.

No one is immune to attacks from Right Wing violence.

The Veteran said...

David ... crap and i'll say it again c r a p slowly to try and penetrate your thick ideological skull. This was a crime against ALL New Zealanders who believe in a fair and tolerant society. Listening to Gerry Brownlie on Oz Sky News and he was absolutely correct in labeling it a terrorist attack.

And it matters not that the attack was apparently orchestrated by an Australian. So feekin what ... Both our countries have our fair share of thickos and thugs and the extreme right/extreme left meme is a crock because both are joined at the hip.

I stand beside the victims of this tragedy. They may be Muslim but they are New Zealanders just like I'm a New Zealander too.

Tom Hunter said...

No one is immune to attacks from Right Wing violence.

You can be sure that if it was a Muslim, David would be right in with the whole, We should not judge the many by the few stuff.

Psycho Milt said...

So, NZ finally gets a terrorist attack, and it turns out the SIS and Police haven't been monitoring the white supremacists responsible. They seem to have plenty of money and staff to monitor climate change protesters and socialists, but apparently little resource for monitoring actual terrorists. Hopefully that's something that is about to change drastically, along with our lax official attitudes to letting fuckwits have guns.

David said...

Veteran, better drag your ageing arse over the Blubber Boys Blog where his Hasbara wife has posted the full manifesto. This was a targeted attack. This was an attack by white supremacists. And the Hasbara troll is giving them oxygen by publishing the manifesto in full.

This was a crime against ALL New Zealanders who believe in a fair and tolerant society.

Which, as much as I wish I was wrong, is not all New Zealanders. A few minutes looking at Blubber Boy and Farrer's blogs will show you how many of your fellow citizens don't believe in a fair and tolerant society. Blubber Boy's fan army is already raving on about threats to their freeze peach and shooting sticks, don't give a fuck for the dead and wounded.

Even on your own blog there are people who deny Palestinians should have a homeland, deny Palestine ever existed. People who think that blowing up Muslims is a good thing. People who have cheered on the US every time it invades, or threatens to invade, a Muslim nation.

and this is where we end up.

This is, without shadow of a doubt a tragedy of biblical proportions, but many of your fellow kiwis will just see it as the opening salvo in the war they hanker for.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Milt, your intemperate comment on SIS and police does you no credit.

It seems to have escaped your notice there were apparently two separate shootings and that four perpetrators and/or their accomplices have been arrested.

Why don't you wait and see where this little gang actually came from, who their backers are, where they obtained their weapons and how many more of them there are, rather than firing off at the mouth before thinking?

Does it not occur to you that those quick arrests might just have been the result of good intelligence and police work?

David said...

Tom Hunter said...
No one is immune to attacks from Right Wing violence.

You can be sure that if it was a Muslim, David would be right in with the whole, We should not judge the many by the few stuff.

March 15, 2019 at 7:49 PM


Fuck off Chunter, in ONE day, in fact, in just a few hours of one day, and bunch of right wing white supremacists murdered more kiwis than Muslims have in 150 years!

But their motives were pure, pure as the whiteness of their skin, just wanting to rid the world of "the other", a bit like the Jews, really.

Tom Hunter said...

In NZ you mean.

Stung a little eh, David? Fully deserved for No Minister's No. 1 Leftie pusher of double standards.

Well, well, well..... reading this POS's garbage manifesto it seems there's chunks of it talking about the workers controlling the means of production.

Andrei said...

"...but many of your fellow kiwis will just see it as the opening salvo in the war they hanker for."

Do you find it easy to be a wanker or do you have to work on it David?

99.999999% of New Zealanders are horrified and in tears over this

FFS there are kids among the dead from what I hear

Tom Hunter said...

And now it's in Britomart Station in Auckland. My son's looking at a bomb disposal robot there and there have been muffled bangs following reports of abandoned luggage. Presumably controlled detonations.

DenMT said...

It's not often I am moved to comment on political blogs, given that the sandpit-level of discussion usually leaves me with the feeling that I had been better off beating my head against a brick wall than spending the few minutes it takes to share my wisdom. I used to comment a bit here, and turn up every so often to see what Veteran or Psycho Milt have to say, as their posts are the tentpoles on this blog.

Suffice to say that I am a confirmed bleeding-heart social justice warrior moonbat etc, as folks who have been round long enough to recall the times when I wrote more frequently would confirm. I am utterly unable to fathom how anyone could react to this tragedy in the way that 'David' has. People are still in shock from the horror of this event, but he appears happy enough to exploit the opportunity to polarise the argument further, while the victims bodies are still warm.

Lift your game.

/DenMT

The Realist said...

I hope the hospital is treating the men first

David said...

Realist, arsehole of the year award.

DenMT, simply pointing out that this is an attack on peaceful people by a white supremacist. A philosophy that sits well with many in NZ, just not tonight.

Chunter, how many Kiwis have been murdered by Muslims outside New Zealand?





Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Congratulations Gravedodger take a bow. Some of the vilest anti Muslim rhetoric has come from your posts...ditto Flinkenstien, silly little children playing grown up mind games that have consequences.

Any phycologist will tell the accumulative effect of the drip drip feed of hate will result in what we see today. Only yesterday I suggested that by allowing the oxygen of publicity to the rightwing on this site without moderation the Blog moderators are just as culpable......I received no reply.

You reap what you sow and the back stepping on the comments above is disgraceful...'Who me Guv....nah nothing to do with me, I'm just an innocent bystander."

Veteran...."That is he penalty we pay for living in free society"....that is tosh and you know it. It is the penalty we pay for allowing hate speech under the guise of free speech because it suits our narrow political aims.....for Christ sake moderate the loonies.

This event is a stain on on NZ and I for one am deeply distressed and for he first time in my life I would resort to violence if I ever met that diseased man/child Dodger in a pub...I would have no hesitation in dropping him.

The post mortem can wait but the question that must be answered is how much did "five eyes" know about this group or it's plans.

Anonymous said...

I'm over this already.
The event was designed to cause fear and disharmony in NZ, it affects us all.
Now is the time to move forward together, rather than be unwitting puppits for the perpetrators, and do their bidding.

Oddball

Anonymous said...

The Junior Subaltern Nonacon and David just can’t put there nastiness away on a day when 49 people are murdered.
You’d bring shame on your fathers if you knew who they were

EH of D

Psycho Milt said...

Does it not occur to you that those quick arrests might just have been the result of good intelligence and police work?

Seems like very good police work, but my comment was prompted by the news that the perps were not on any SIS or Police intelligence watch list. Both organisations have a lengthy history of focusing on left-wing or environmentalist protest groups while ignoring white supremacist groups, so no I don't think it's a bit early to blame them for that.

As to whether or not the perps were white supremacists or not, the published manifesto makes that very clear. The only good thing to come out of this might be that it becomes less socially acceptable to peddle those views in public.

The Veteran said...

David ... FFS ... lift your game please. This is time for mourning. The recriminations can come later. I suspect that were this a repeat of the Munich massacre you would be first in line in donating to a GIL appeal for funding for their defence.

It's a crime against all New Zealanders because in this country we don't discriminate against a persons religious beliefs (or non beliefs in your case). We can question them just like I question socialism but that's not the same thing and you know it.

Noel said...

Scotty has given his condolences. Wonder if Pauline will follow?

Andrei said...

I think Milt when the dust settles you are going to find that this was a lone wolf attack. An Anders Brevik thing with little to attract anyones attention to the perp in the lead up.

The problem is with rapidly unfolding events and TV reporting that the TV people have to maintain wall to wall coverage but have no real information to impart and they get much wrong in the process as they retell the same events with the same few clips over and over for hours at a time

I think when they cordoned off everything and searched vehicles leaving the cordon the police picked up on two independant cases of people with illegal firearms in their possesion that in the fullness of time have been revealed to have nothing to do with this massacre, though still illegal behaviour of course

I'm not 100% certain of this and time will show if I'm right or wrong but listening carefully to Mike Bush's presser seemed to suggest this was the case.

Incidently Adolf posted on todays open thread "Friday's Fulminations" at March 15, 2019 at 11:27 before the event

"Beware the Ides of March!"

Do you think he had foreknowledge of what horrors today would bring?

Andrei said...

Because we are dealing with people like David in this thread let me make it quite clear that I know Asolf was quoting Shakespeare's Julius Caeser with reference to today's date and not suggesting for one second that Adolf was privy to something we were not

I'm just hinting how unrelated factoids can be spun into a misleading or false narrative

Tom Hunter said...

This event is a stain on on NZ and I for one am deeply distressed and for he first time in my life I would resort to violence if I ever met that diseased man/child Dodger in a pub...I would have no hesitation in dropping him.

No insult to Gravedodger but given his age it probably would not be that difficult, even for a BabyBoomer. Still, good to see that the righteous assault mentality is alive an well in Count Eggburt's breast. Ironically it's what was in the shooter's breast as well. Eggburt is in good company.

Any phycologist will tell the accumulative effect of the drip drip feed of hate will result in what we see today.
Funny that you and most other Lefties have denied for two decades that concept that the drip drip feed of hate from numerous Imams around the world might have led to the Islamic jihadist death toll of the last two decades.

But you keep going with your self-righteous, Pharisee approach. It suits you more than you know.

Tom Hunter said...

@Andrei
I wouldn't worry about it. There's a vast gulf between the "David"s and the rest of us. We knew what you meant.

@Psycho Milt
... while ignoring white supremacist groups...
Have you or anyone else on the Left or Right ever taken Kyle Chapman and his bunch of gutless, Nazi fucktards seriously?

If there were other such people about they were keeping a damned low profile, and even in this age of Internet spying they could have stayed under the radar of the Police and company.

David said...

I would love to see Ardern make an instant deportation order for this POS. It would be so much fun watching Morrison and Dutton squirm like worms on a hook.

David said...

Essentially, his manifesto mimics the same kind of anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, and anti-leftist views expressed by the Norwegian right-wing extremist Anders Breivik, who shot dead 77 Norwegian students in what he described as his protest against Europe’s liberal and multicultural values.

“Merkel [German Chancellor], the mother of all things anti-white and anti-germanic, is top of the list. Few have done more to damage and racially cleanse Europe of its people,” reads the opening excerpt to Tarrant’s manifesto titled “The Great Replacement”. That is a reference to the same “white genocide” theory that drove the Pittsburgh Synagogue shooter, who killed 11 Jewish worshippers in October of last year.

In another post, Tarrant provides his social media followers a series of questions and answers, in which he claims conservative pundit Candice Owen, a darling of the far right, to be the “particular person” who radicalised him the “most”.

“Each time she spoke I was stunned by her insights and her own views helped push me further and further into the belief of violence over meekness,” Tarrant wrote.

Owens, an African American, is feted by far-right activists and white nationalists for praising the US President as the “saviour” of the West, and for warning Europe will soon be overrun by Muslims, while also not forgetting her recent statement proclaiming Hitler would have been fine if he didn’t want to “globalise”. In other words, the Holocaust was fine. The problem is Hitler invaded other countries.




David said...

David ... FFS ... lift your game please. This is time for mourning. The recriminations can come later.

No, now is the time to apportion blame, while the wounds are visceral and raw. Now is the time to call out the enablers of white supremacists. Now is the time to make sure these things are not brushed under the carpet and forgotten.

Australian Senator, Fraser Anning expresses his condolences.

Senator Anning said in a tweet: "Does anyone still dispute the link between Muslim immigration and violence?"

"I wonder if there will be as much outrage from the left wing when the next Muslim terrorist attack occurs? Most likely silence and talk about lone wolf attacks, mental illness and no connection to Islam”, he added.

In a media release, he said "whilst this kind of violent vigilantism can never be justified, what it highlights is the growing fear within our community, both in Australia and New Zealand, of the increasing Muslim presence."

"The real cause of bloodshed on New Zealand streets today is the immigration program which allowed Muslim fanatics to migrate to New Zealand in the first place."


This is the stoking of hatred that leads to murder. This is who we are, not who we should be.

49 people killed by a white supremacist. Targeted for their religion and the colour of their skin. 4 people killed by Muslim terrorists in OZ, and Anning wants to blame Muslims for being the victims of a right wing white supremacist murderer.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Chunter...labelling people left or right about attitudes towards religious extremism is as stupid as it is wrong but as you are avowed right winger with little sympathy towards other points of view and with an agenda to create division I do not expect you to change.
Address the point on hate speech and perhaps you might like to comment on your attempt to excuse the perps because the "inmans" started it.

By the way, for every radical Inman there have been a dozen moderates distancing their religion from the crazies.

Now try and post something positive instead of sniping at others attempts to bring sanity back this subject.

Tom Hunter said...

Address the point on hate speech

I'm not the one who wrote the following about one of this blog's writers:

if I ever met that diseased man/child Dodger in a pub...I would have no hesitation in dropping him.

Before you start stamping your little feet to demand that I or anyone else address the point on hate speech, how about you pull your head out of your ass and retract or apologies for your little bit of "hate speech".

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

David @ 11.20

For once, I agree entirely with you. Just mentioned the same thing to The Cook a few minutes ago.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Yes, quite correct Chunter, have retracted my head from my New Zealand ARSE and duly apologise for something I should not have said in the heat of the moment hearing that my poor Christchurch is yet again the scene of carnage brought about by a systematic campaign by the hard right to radicalise the moronic in our midst.

Perhaps now you might explain why you are blame shifting this atrocity on radical Inmans.

Gravedodger....you are safe from an attack out of the blue but don't catch fire anywhere near me......I wouldn't piss on you.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Europe's reaction.....https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1100399/new-Zealand-mosque-shooting-latest-update-live-christchurch-dead-injured-terror

This attack puts us right up there with France and I have been fielding dozens of calls from people who know my background offering condolences and expressing their horror.


It is at times like this when I realise that he right wing haters will never win. They will cause heartbreak and terror in the near future but they will never win.

Now would be a good time to publish a "No Minister" moderation policy.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Veteran, decent and kind thoughts. Some of the others - meh.

ConnyPN

Tom Hunter said...

It is at times like this when I realise that he right wing haters will never win. They will cause heartbreak and terror in the near future but they will never win.

Hmmmm. But the eco-fascists might.:

The manifesto left by the terrorist — whose name I don’t think deserves mentioning — is a mishmash of ideas. He calls himself an “Eco-fascist,” one who combines environmentalism, racism and authoritarianism into one repulsive package. In his mind the world is dying from over-population, but over-population of the “wrong” kind. He hates capitalism, free markets, and free trade but he loves the Communist Chinese government and fascism. He takes the racist rhetoric of Donald Trump and mixes it with Marxist rhetoric about the poor workers of the world.

Plenty of ideas and hate-objects to cherry pick from there if one is so inclined, eh Eggburt?

Or you could just say that he was a nutter.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

That he is mentally ill there is no doubt just like the end of the run Muslim extremist's who aren't really Muslim just small time crooks born with Muslim parents. Trying to distance this atrocity from the mixed messages given by the hard right web sites is not working......good thing you withdrew your erroneous post on De Gaulle.

Why are you trying to dilute the reason by blaming radical Inman's from long ago and why do you appear to be an apologist for what is overwhelmingly a planned terrorist attack spawned by the hard right.

I don't beleive you have any connection to NZ apart from a encyclopedic data base on NZ and US politics

Tom Hunter said...

good thing you withdrew your erroneous post on De Gaulle.

Heh. I'm going to be putting it back when things have settled down because I thought it might make for good debate and I did not want it to be lost amidst this huge news story. Which is why I've also copied Andrei's post - much as I disagreeed with it. And I would have copied and held yours as well, but you must have commented just as I pulled the article so could not save yours.

Trying to distance this atrocity from the mixed messages given by the hard right web sites is not working
Oh I'm sure that without even looking at the MSM they'll be carrying your propaganda full force, so it certainly might look like your dream come true. Fortunately their influence is vastly less than it was, and falling every day in the face of the Web, so I think the message will get out about the various "mixed messages" he picked up from the Left as well as the Right.

Why are you trying to dilute the reason by blaming radical Inman's....
I simply pointed out that if one is going to natter about the "poisoness drip, drip, drip of hate", then you'd be forced to acknowledge what many Imams have been doing over the last few decades and that the situation is far from being "small time crooks" who "aren't really Muslim".

Assuming you have consistent standards of course, rather than rules-for-me-but-not-for-thee.

I don't beleive you have any connection to NZ
Yes, you've said that many, many, many times. Short of a photo of me with The Vet or Psycho Milt I'm sure nothing will convince you, but I don't have enough respect for you to bother going such lengths.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

No..I'm sure you don't. Where were you born Chunter...oh sorry I've asked that a few times before with no answer.....I published my full name on this site so unlike you I don't hide behind anonymity, ridicule and abuse. I can provide a photo of me and Veteran...a bit dated though.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Sorry forgot my evidence, must be getting like you..


97% of jihadists that carried out the 22 successful attacks in France since 2012 were known either for radicalisation (82%) or by the police
79% were either on France’s terror watchlist (61%) or on that of other European nations
Out of 78 French jihadists either arrested for terrorist offences, killed while staging terrorist attacks or fugitives from justice, 49% had previous convictions and 19% had been multiple offenders, just like Cherif Chekatt, with long track records of classical criminal activity.

Nice and Strasbourg attack...same loser profile. Just nutters who found their calling on hate sites.

David said...

Remembering Srebrenica is able to confirm that the terrorist who butchered innocent Muslim worshippers in the Christchurch Mosque attack was listening to a Serbian song glorifying Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadžić who was convicted for the 1995 genocide of Muslims on European soil in Srebrenica in Bosnia.

Whilst driving en route to committing this atrocity, the perpetrator was live-streaming. In the background is the Serbian song that glorified Radovan Karadžić with the lyrics “Wolves are on the move from Krajina. Karadžić lead your Serbs, let them see they fear no one” being played.

(...)

Acts like these do not happen spontaneously. The incident in Christchurch is the culmination of years of Islamophobic rhetoric and anti-Muslim prejudices that have been allowed to develop into an extreme ideology and that has resulted in the murder of people who were targeted simply because of their religious identity.

We must be prepared to accept that we have tolerated Islamophobia and dehumanisation of Muslims by politicians, media, communities and far right groups for far too long and our collective failure to challenge such behaviour has led to the rise of religiously-motivated attacks. The genocide in Srebrenica is a tragic example of what can happen when such hatred is allowed to flourish, and the sad events of today once again reminds us of the need to reaffirm our efforts to stand up to such extremist and hateful ideologies.


Even on this minor blog in a remote backwater of the Pacific, there are many examples of anti-Muslim rants, of communal blaming of Muslims for the evils of the few, of outright hatred.

The next time there is an Islamist terror attack and you ask "Where are the moderate Muslims?", ask yourself what you could have done to prevent the horror in Christchurch.

Tom Hunter said...

... unlike you I don't hide behind anonymity, ridicule and abuse. - Count Eggburt

... of outright hatred. - David

Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

David said...

Poor old Chunter, facts are his enemy.

Go back and read some of the posts here and you will find outright hatred, especially in anything Muzza rites wiv crayons when it comes to Muslims.

This murderous cunt was one of yours, and you know it. It's just too early for you to openly cheer him.

But nice try at deflection. Sorry, you failed.

Fraser Anning needs a few buddies right now, I suggest you and he have so much in common you'd be a marriage of perfect pairs.

Tom Hunter said...

This murderous cunt was one of yours...

So by your logic you'll be taking responsibility for Bernie Bro shooter, James T. Hodgkinson?

After all, he said the same things about Republicans and the Right that you do every day here on No Minister. By your lights his only problem was that he was a poor shot.

But he's been memory-holed by the MSM - and you it would seem.

Hal said...

Hi Tom, sorry, I’m struggling to understand your point. Are you suggesting that the “MSM” deliberately underplay certain acts of violence and amplify others for political purposes? I’m not suggesting you’re wrong, I’m just wondering if you can produce evidence and motive for this, as it’s a very serious allegation.

On the substantive point, you appear to be giving a pass to far right-wingers like Gravedodger who consistently publish islamophobic content and hold very similar views, quite publicly, to the perpetrator of this horrendous act of terror. A fallback to whataboutism seems a bit craven really. So can you please clarify if you think it’s fine to bang on about how frightening and insidious Islam is and then run for the hills when someone takes the rhetoric seriously? Thanks!

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

"Now would be a good time to publish a "No Minister" moderation policy."

So says the self righteous Ledgut.

I do. That's why you are banned.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

"This murderous cunt was one of yours..."

Thus sayeth the self righteous David.

Actually David, he's one of yours and you'll have him back on your shores just as quick as you can say 'deport the bastard.'

Noel said...

Gee that caused discussion on many tangents.
Next one will be the other elephant in the room.
Yah can't mate a 30 round magazine to a MSSA but you can to his Category A rifle.

Tom Hunter said...

@Noel
Are you suggesting that the “MSM” deliberately underplay certain acts of violence and amplify others for political purposes? I’m not suggesting you’re wrong, I’m just wondering if you can produce evidence and motive for this, as it’s a very serious allegation.

It long ago moved from being a "very serious allegation" to "meh, of course". And it's actually more for for ideological purposes than political, varying only where there is a cross-over with a political party or parties.

Running a Lexis Nexus search on Hodgkinson vs Brevik for example would be the best, but I don't have access to that service, so Google will have to suffice:

breivik: About 10,800,000 results

james hodgkinson: About 2,680,000 results

And since they'll be the usual talk of a difference in levels of death, here's the Google search for th Orlando nightclub killer, Islamist Omar Mateen, with 49 deaths at his hands, Omar Mateen: About 3,870,000 results

Noel said...

Nah all I'm saying at some point that issue will have to be addressed.
Ahh what serious allegation are you accusing me of?

Hal said...

Thanks Tom, although I don’t think that your Google search examples in any way count as evidence for your allegation of deliberate ideological bias in the “MSM”. And of course, argument by assertion, which is the other approach you appear to take (“meh, of course”), doesn’t really constitute an argument at all. Do you have anything else though? You must have something, you’re so definite about it.

Noel, Tom has got us confused. As you were.

Tom Hunter said...

Noel, Tom has got us confused. As you were.

Shrugs shoulders. Happens with NPC's.

Do you have anything else though?
Typical. I provide evidence in the form of Google's track of global websites and news sites. The evidence shows a large imbalance in the number of reports of an Islamist shooter vs. a White Supremacist shooter.

And you ask for more because you don't believe that's an example of deliberate ideological media bias - ideology nowdays meaning Identity Politics, Intersectionality and all that good stuff - beyond old-fashioned Socialism. Gun control and LGBTQ to the fore also.

I could show you the various surveys the media have done of themselves over the years in the US, showing the overwhelming dominance of donations and support for the Democrats (the nearest thing they've got to a Left-wing), the self-described "Liberal" vs "Right" leans (equally massive in favour of the Left), or the various reports of it by people like the NYT Obudsman a few years ago or the WaPo's equivalent.

No point though. You wouldn't believe them either, and I find it hard to accept you're not aware of such.

Anyway, perhaps you can explain the imbalance in the volume of stories between Breivik and Omar Mateen as being due to factors other than those ideologies?

Your purpose of course is to maintain the fiction that the MSM is not biased against the Right so that you can continue to point to articles in the WaPo, NYT or The Guardian and proclaim that we can trust their reporting. You may even believe the old saw about the MSM being "Right" because Corporates.

Won't work. I believed all that shite for years too. But now I just think they're ignorant morons at best - as Obama's advisor, Ben Rhodes did - or outright liars who never miss a chance to smear the Right in general.

Kimbo said...

@ Hal

I think what Tom may be alluding to is that when an act of terror is perpetrated by a jihadist - and that description covers the mad, bad, sad idiots who plough a truck through a crowd citing some tenuous connection with ISIS - the MSM have a deliberate policy of not linking the action with Islam. Indeed, they often don’t mention the religio-ideological reasons/excuses of the perp. That is justifiable as it arguably denies oxygen to the terrorist’s cause...although it is probably pointless as everyone can work it out from the details provided.

In contrast there seems no such restraint in labelling a suspect a “right winger”. Such as yesterday. Mind you, over on Kiwiblog right now a whole bunch of self-confessed right wingers are making the valid point their political viewpoint doesn’t equate to violence, nor should it do so. Indeed they repudiate it and the idea they can and should be tarred with the same brush as the perpetrator of yesterday’s atrocity. Fair enough, although that’s not a courtesy many of them have paid to ordinary peaceable Muslims up to this point. Quite the opposite.

Or they rationalise the grab bag of horse shit in the manifesto posted by the POS who did this, and try and assert “he’s an extremist (maybe even a leftist!) not a right winger because...not free market/ecology/anarchist”...whatever. Which is bullshit. Dissembling and obfuscation about “alt-right is hard to define” aside, this was an alt-right terrorist attack. Chamberlain underestimated and misunderstood Hitler at Munich, thinking he could reason with a man whose core motivation was racism, ideological extremism and bigotry.

Hal said...

Thanks Kimbo, yes I suspect that’s right, although it would be good if Tom could clearly articulate the exact nature of his allegations of systematic and deliberate ideological bias and how it is coordinated and undertaken and why. At the moment he’s simply asserted it’s true and provided as evidence the number of google search results from two entirely difference incidents and claimed this as some sort of proof. Now he’s getting snooty when it’s pointed out that that really doesn’t count as evidence (you’re welcome). How many references for Stephen Paddock or Dylann Roof for example?

Breivik was atypical as he slaughtered nearly 100 children, and it wasn’t in the US where such incidents are common due to the NRA and craven politicians.

Anyway Tom, I’m more interested in my first question for you which you have studiously ignored as it’s no doubt made you uncomfortable.

Anonymous said...

"That's the penalty we pay for living in a free society."

The penalty that terrorists of any colour or creed who commit evil like this should be the forfeiture of their life. Gun law change to rid NZ of mssa wanker weapons is one thing, law change to put terrorist mass murderers to death is another.

Mick


Noel said...

Technical point Mick. Both the rifles were Cat A not MSSA.
The industry mocked the rules when the added a bit of plastic to connect to the pistol grip.
The result was you cannot add a large capacity magazine to an MSSA but you can to a rifle with that little bit of extra plastic on it.

The claim that responsible shooters should not be impeded by the irresponsible murderers has just come home to roost.

Anyway in any civilian shooting experience where do you need a 30 round magazine?

Tom Hunter said...

... and how it is coordinated and undertaken and why
It's not coordinated. You're angling for the conspiracy theory you can dismiss. Do you think the media pile-on's with Smollet and the Covington kids were coordinated? More like a herd of cattle. A dog barks. They move in a given direction.

Anyway Tom, I’m more interested in my first question for you which you have studiously ignored as it’s no doubt made you uncomfortable.

Bored actually. Already answered with evidence. That you don't accept that as evidence is not my problem - although I see you've tried to come up with some other factor in two entirely different [sic[ incidents, which I knew you'd do. That's a weak and debatable argument for rejecting that evidence however, and I see you have no other. If I gave you a list of US reporters and editors talking about the liberal (US) bias of their profession you'd simply dismiss that in the same way. I can see it now: "You've only named ten / twenty / a hundred".

But what the hell. Since you think you've got me in a corner and since I'm actually a blog author here, I'll put up a piece on this once things have settled down. In the meantime here's a podcast of today's special Nine-To-Noon, Radio NZ, that you'll love since it has not a single voice like mine on it.

Kimbo said...

@Tom Hunter

“I see you tried to come up with some other factor in two entirely [sic[ different incidents, which I knew you’d do”.

And you failed there, Tom, to cite Kimbo’s Law: in blogworld the validity of a statement in is inverse proportion to the use of emphatic adverbs.

My lawyer will be in touch with your lawyer.

Tom Hunter said...

My lawyer will be in touch with your lawyer

Shit!

But in this environment won't it be "my guys will be in touch with your guys"?

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

It seems Veteran was right on the button when he talked about "low life pond dwellers" who are in denial. The amount of deflection used to deny any attachment to the far right and white suprematists beggars belief, I see normal service has resumed on Adolf's blog.

Apart from being shot to death we have little to worry about from the far right if the intelligence of this individual is anything to go by........the fact that as a self avowed racist and white suprematist he chooses a country to commit a crime where two thirds of the prison population are non white shows a certain disregard for forward planning......enjoy your stay.

Tom Hunter said...

Don’t Exploit Christchurch.

Too late - and very relevant to Hal's question above.

Today, a Norwegian friend noted that while two of the country’s leading dailies, VG and Dagbladet, ignored two major jihadist attacks in recent weeks—one that took 20 lives in a cathedral in the Philippines, and another that took 32 lives in a church in Nigeria—those same newspapers are packed with stories about the events in New Zealand.

Same old, same old.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Try changing your friends and doing your own research...

https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/minst-50-drept-i-det-dodeligste-angrepet-hittil-i-ar/68904555

Same old same old lies and distortion

Tom Hunter said...

@Count Eggburt

Was there something about "two major jihadist attacks in recent weeks" and "2017", the date of your linked Dagbladet story, that confused you?

We're in 2019, old boy.

Besides, although I'd find it hard to believe they would not print at least one story about the Philippine and Nigerian massacres, "ignore" is a perfect description of one or two stories vs many about our sad event. Which is the standard MSM approach.

Although it could be that Norwegians simply care more about what happens in NZ than Nigeria or the Phillipines?

David said...

It only took 48 hours, but here we have the Revolting Right, as represented by Chunter, with their version of "Let's not talk of the shooting".

I'll think you have a point when you can point to a newspaper that covers, without fail, every event, everywhere on Earth. If you're not happy with the standard of reporting in Norwegian media, why not fuck off to Norway and start your own version of Der Stürmer?

Didn't see a word from you on this one, Little Tommy.

The Revolting Right are running for cover as fast as they can, shrieking "look over there". The most despicable, Trump loving, loved by Trump, Limbaugh is already labeling it a "false flag". Expect Tommy to run with that any minute now.

Not seen you condemn Fraser Anning's attack on Muslims, so I guess you approve of his message. I suppose you see him as one of the "fine people on both sides".

Make no mistake, this horror is the creation of people like you, Trump, Gravedodger, Morrison, Dutton, Adolf, Blair Cottrell, and all the rest of that basket of deplorables that is The Revolting Right.

And Chunter, not one word of sympathy for the victims from you. Not one. Just blame shifting.











Tom Hunter said...

not one word of sympathy for the victims from you. Not one.
I guess you did not read my comment at the start of this thread

You wanted the actual word "condolences"? My expression of sadness for murdered innocents is no less than your formalised expression above.

Make no mistake, this horror is the creation of people like you...
So as I said earlier, by that logic the shootings performed by James Hodgkinson are the creation of people like you, who express the same unhinged, hate-filled emotional rants against "The Right" that he did. I noted you had no response to that.

And of course if we search ye olde NoMInister for that story - THE CONSEQUENCES OF OVER THE TOP POLITICAL RHETORIC, what do we find from you? Not only no expressions of sympathy for the gunned-down Republicans but this:

In other words, he was a gun fondlers gun fondler.
...
Steve Scalise got his due.


I also noted from your religious discussion with Kimbo that while you left theology, church and god behind years ago, you've continued to carry the same Manichaeistic approach to life that every religious fanatic does. An atheist Jerry Falwell - who in that old thread, claims he's a pacifist. Ha!

You're a Far Left piece of shit who has cheered on every murderous Left-Wing POS for the last forty years, from the Vietnamese Communist murderers right up to Mugabe, Chavez and Hodgkinson - and you will do so again in the future, so your desperate efforts to try and claim some moral high-ground here (you're sole purpose here) are a constant fail.

David said...

Oh, don't worry, Chunter, I read it alright. And I noticed how quickly you segued so quickly into attacking another person. You couldn't even wait and make a second comment. So fuck off with your lectures on moral high ground.

Jesus, could you be any closer to the Right Wing Bombast I always thought you were? You don't know me, but you have no hesitation in making shit up.

Those "Vietnamese Communist murderers" were simply people trying to free their country from colonial oppressors. And yes, I supported their right to self determination while you were getting a hard on reading about William Calley. You do realise that Vietnamese refer to the invasion of their country as The American War?

Not once did I ever offer any sign of support of Mugabe, but I note well that the hero of the Australian Deplorables, John Howard, did support Gadaffi.

You, of course, stand on the sidelines, cheering every invasion of another nation by the USA, cheering on the CIA as they overthrow legitimate governments who won't bow to American hegemony. But you never get blood on your hands, you don't have the guts to sign up for the fight.

Not once have I seen you condemn the racist POS that squats in The Whitehouse. But then, to you, he just says out loud what everyone thinks, doesn't he.

Tom Hunter said...

Even if you had not soiled yourself on the blog every single day for years, I'd still know everything I need to know about you with this statement of yours:
"Steve Scalise got his due" - David, 2017

No escaping that one, but boy, do you have chutzpah in spades in coming back with this howler straight after I show you up as a rage and hate-filled bag of pus:
So fuck off with your lectures on moral high ground

Et Tu, POS.

David said...

Business as usual for Capitalists.

Travellers trying to book to travel to the city in the wake of the mosque attacks encountered fares that are much more expensive than usual.

One traveller tweeted the airline on Saturday, calling a price of $787 for a return fare "ridiculous" when people were trying to get there for funerals.

Air New Zealand posted on Twitter that prices had gone up because, although it was putting on additional capacity, there was little availability.


Andrei said...

Business as usual for David distorting and misleading

And this excerpted is from his own link

"On Sunday morning, the airline said it had capped its one-way domestic fares to and from Christchurch at $139.

It also has had compassionate fare assistance in place since Friday, and has had 100 bookings of free travel for immediate family of victims and discounted compassionate fares for other affected friends and family

"The airline's contact centre teams has been asking callers since Friday about their reason for travelling to Christchurch to ensure they proactively identify customers travelling to support the families of the victims," it said in a statement.

"Beyond the measures Air New Zealand has introduced for customers affected by the shooting tragedy in Christchurch, it has also been working closely with the Prime Minister's office to support the transport of key people to Christchurch including emergency services personnel.

"The airline has transported more than 70 police officers from around New Zealand to Christchurch and various emergency support personnel, including eight specialist doctors from Auckland, Hamilton, New Plymouth, Wellington and Tauranga.

"The airline has also been working with the wider Muslim community to facilitate travel "

Kimbo said...

Just out of interest, David, in amongst your vituperative scorn of the oppressors of the working class, have you given any money to relieve the suffering of the victims, especially as many of the survivors may now be without a primary breadwinner?

Theodore Dalrymple critiquing the Communist Manifesto:

"There is no mistaking the hatred and rage of these words; but anger, while a real and powerful emotion, is not necessarily an honest one, nor is it by any means always ungratifying. There is a permanent temptation, particularly for intellectuals, to suppose that one's virtue is proportional to one's hatred of vice, and that one's hatred of vice is in turn to be measured by one's vehemence of denunciation. But when Marx wrote he must surely have known that they were at best a savage caricature, at worst a deliberate distortion calculated to mislead and destroy"

("Our culture, what's left of it", 2005)

David said...

So Kimbo, just like Chunter, you have no words of compassion, no worthwhile contribution, not even the "thoughts and prayers" assuaging of your conscience. All you have is an attempt to vilify me. And you wonder I find xtians so contemptible.

Matt 6:3.



Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Absolutely first class question avoidance skills on display.

David said...

For Chunter and Kimbo.  Go borrow mum’s credit card.

And you too, Adolf.

Gerald said...

Gun lobby appear to have indicated where there sympathies are.
https://kiwigunblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/bnd.jpg?w=400&h=200&crop=1

David said...

Maybe a few shekels here.

Andrei said...

Great cartoon Gerald - shows the vapidity of our leader and her lack of analytical skills as she introduces a knee jerk policy on the hoof

Psycho Milt said...

...shows the vapidity of our leader and her lack of analytical skills...

It doesn't take much in the way of analytical skills to figure out our gun laws are way too lax. Her excellent analytical skills and depth of character lie in recognising that this incident will enable her to correct that situation.

The cartoon demonstrates the gun lobby's vapidity and lack of analytical skills. In just one cartoon, they manage to side with a white supremacist mass murderer and present a laughable logical fallacy (an impressive straw man). Obnoxious and stupid - it's funny how often those two things go together.

David said...

PM, that's the best they can do. They are shallow, vapid, gun fondlers. Their masculinity is defined by the caliber of their weapons, as is there humanity.

Fortunately, not all is lost, there are still men who can see clearly where the problems arise and how they can be rectified.

This nation needs more leadership, across all levels, in all parties, like that provided by New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern in the wake of Christchurch’s mosque massacres.

With steely calm, with inclusive language, seeking to unite rather than divide, she told the world, “To the people who did this: you may have chosen us, but we UTTERLY reject and condemn you.”

Ms Ardern is one out of the box, a leader for her times, ideally suited to guide her country through this catastrophe. In Australia we need to make a choice between the politics of hate and division, or inclusiveness and unity. No one party has a mortgage on the latter, but – with Pauline Hanson as a notable exception – female politicians seem to best display the latter qualities.


https://www.theage.com.au/national/ardern-is-a-leader-for-our-times-and-we-should-follow-her-example-20190315-p514lg.html

I sit back and wait for them to ignore the message and attack the messenger.

Kimbo said...

So Kimbo, just like Chunter, you have no words of compassion, no worthwhile contribution, not even the "thoughts and prayers" assuaging of your conscience. All you have is an attempt to vilify me. And you wonder I find xtians so contemptible.

Again, not so. In a previous post I referred to the event as an atrocity and insisted that no matter what the rationalisations, obfuscations and dissembling of some right wing commentators in blogworld, this was an alt-right-inspired atrocity, pure and simple. But thanks for the link nonetheless.

And Matthew 6:3? Well, I'm not the one who started pointing fingers on this thread. And in your case your contempt for Christians seldom seems to merit a reasonable cause, when any old excuse will do.

So you don't find that Dalrymple's cap is one that fits. Fair enough, it takes courage and intellectual honesty to engage in meaningful self-examination.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Not only juvenile but asinine.

Andrei said...

PM don't you think the issue goes somewhat deeper than guns

Do you seriously believe that "new gun laws" will do anything to address the core problem(s) that lead to events like this

I myself might question why a civilian might require a semi-automatic center fire rifle. It would be an interesting debate - seperate classifications of firearms license for rimfire 22, center fire and shotguns might also be an debate with some merits

But to think that this will fix the fundamental issues of mass murder of random strangers by disaffected loosers is hopelessly naive

Timothy McVeigh showed what a sick mind can acheive without firearms for example

Trucks have been used and acheived comparable death tolls to this recent atrocity

I'd be far more interested in what creates these people in the first place and how to identify them before they produce their carnage.

It is my opinion that this fellow's manifesto is just his self justification for his actions. I think he is just a mad dog who went on a ramapage and the political stuff is just window dressing- that's just my opinion

Men, usually young, going on a ramapage and killing random strangers is not a new phenomina

Fortunately it is rare

David said...

Remembering the Christchurch victims.

Chunter, he's all yours.

Still waiting for your name on the Go Fund Me page.



David said...

I'd be far more interested in what creates these people in the first place and how to identify them before they produce their carnage.

8chan

Trump

Fox News

Morrison & Dutton.

Blair Cottrell.

Uber Nationalism.

Fraser Anning

Pauline Hanson.

G W Bush

St Ronnie Reagan

Religion

facebook

Twitter

ISIL

There's a bloody good starting point for you.

And surely, after this, the fucktards that run Rugby can come up with a better name than Crusaders and cut out the horses and swords.

Andrei said...

I guess you are pathologically incapable of engaging in adult debate David

None of those existed when Charles Whitman did his thing, nor Michael Ryan or Martin Bryant

And I strongly suggest that the individual currently in custody in Christchurch has a great deal more in common with these people than with Jordan Peterson, say, a supposed creature of the "alt right"

Anyway in his manifesto he expressed admiration for Anders Breivik - a socially isolated looser who created misery, mayhem and carnage, you will recall and who now is not enjoying his incarceration one little bit

And this fellow will also be spending the rest of his life in a small concrete room with only his toilet for companionship - the last major milestone in his life being his trial after which nothing will ever happen again - seems reasonable to me

Anonymous said...

I would rather not focus on the perpetrators, and give them undeserved attention.
Below is a link about the victims and how some of them fought back.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/03/zealand-mosque-attacks-victims-190316183339297.html

Oddball

David said...

None of those existed when Charles Whitman did his thing, nor Michael Ryan or Martin Bryant

No religion?

No right wing manifestos?

No adoration of Hitler?

Of course, in a poor attempt at deflection, none of the three cases you mentioned had a political angle.

Jordan Peterson is not a creature of the "alt right", he is a creator and enabler of it. If you ever go to a meal with him, don't order Lobster. :-)

You asked for causes, I gave you some. Sorry if I am more up to date than you with where these swamp dwellers arise.

BTW - no words of condolence from VVP. Still looking for his shirt, I suppose.

David said...

Agreed, Odball, but citing Al Jazeera here is not likely to win you friends among the Fox News crowd.

Psycho Milt said...

Do you seriously believe that "new gun laws" will do anything to address the core problem(s) that lead to events like this

Yes, I do. Will it render events like this impossible? No. Is it a sensible precaution to render events like this more difficult to carry out? Yes. Much like locking your house when you leave it won't prevent a burglar from robbing you, but is still a sensible thing to do when you leave your house.

The gun lobby is effectively arguing that if a particular measure (eg, locking your front door) doesn't create a 100% guarantee against criminal acts (eg, burglary), that it's a pointless measure. But do you imagine any of the fucked-up excuses for human beings forming that gun lobby neglect to lock their doors when they go out?

Psycho Milt said...

And this fellow will also be spending the rest of his life in a small concrete room with only his toilet for companionship - the last major milestone in his life being his trial after which nothing will ever happen again - seems reasonable to me

That's the only silver lining on this cloud, and it's a pity his fellow white supremacists won't all share the same fate. Big ups to the cops who forced this cunt off the road and took his lethal toys off him.

David said...

Our spirit is the spirit of peace and understanding. Our spirit is opposed to violence, opposed to hate, opposed to every motive that has produced this terrible war … we can overcome, ladies and gentlemen.

Those words, from Dr Jim Cairns in 1970, are as relevant today as they were then.

We are back in the 1930's, the old divisions are being created anew.

We must stop the fascists.



David said...



Dear David InOz,

This is a receipt for your donation to New Zealand Christchurch Mosque Shooting.

Date: March 16, 2019

Donation to: New Zealand Christchurch Mosque Shooting
Donation will be received by: Hanthala H


Anyone going to match me? Chunter? Adolf? Kimbo?

Put down your glass of vinegared hatred for a moment, and do a humanitarian deed for once.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

This is getting to be a habit but, again, I agree with Milt.

I have some years experience as an above average marksman using .303 and .308 (7.62mm) rifles before concussion put a stop to that activity. Both were military issue at the time. Further, I have been on numerous deer hunting expeditions in NZ and I can assure readers the last thing you need to carry when you walk five miles, climbing fifteen hundred feet, is a damn fool semi automatic rife and thirty round of ammunition. I always took along a cut down .308 with just three rounds of ammunition in my pocket. If you didn't get close enough for a clean shot with the first round, you were pretty hopeless.

I'm firmly of the view there is no justification for putting heavy calibre semi automatic rifles in the hands of the public. They are military weapons and, as such, should be restricted to the military and those of the police who are thoroughly trained in their use.

Private citizens, including farmers, have no real need for anything heavier than a .22 magnum, or at most a .270 - all in bolt action with ten shot magazines.

Milt also is right in that such restrictions won't stop future atrocities but they sure as hell mean the perps won't be able, as this fellow did, to walk off the street and buy an arsenal of heavy weaponry in New Zealand.

Psycho Milt said...

Yep - in the early '80s I was in the Territorials and was trained to use the then-standard SLR. Its sole purpose was to kill humans and that has remained with me ever since - we only ever shot at targets that were circles, not human shapes, but that didn't alter the purpose of the weapon. People who like to own such guns are people who like the idea of killing humans, whatever other bullshit reasons they come up with for owning those weapons are just that. I'd like NZ law to put a lot of restrictions on such people.

Andrei said...

Talking out of your asshole as usual David

"BTW - no words of condolence from VVP. Still looking for his shirt, I suppose."

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/60069"


Condolences to Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern
Vladimir Putin sent Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern a message of condolences in the wake of the tragic terrorist attack in Christchurch.

“This attack on civilians who gathered for prayer is shocking in its violence and cynicism. I hope that every person involved in this crime will sustain a well-deserved punishment,” the message says.

Vladimir Putin stressed that Russians share the grief of those who lost their loved ones and hope for a speedy recovery of those who were injured.

David said...

Andrei, I stand corrected.

Thank you,.

Lord Egbut Nobacon said...

Can anyone spot what is going on here....

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43127529