Monday, August 13, 2018


The brouhaha over the failure by Jeremy Corbyn and his leadership team to address adequately the claims of systemic antisemitism within the UK Labour Party continues unabbated.

Just last week Dame Margaret Hodge, Labour MP for Barking, said the Party had "become a hostile environment for Jews".  Lady Hodge who had previously criticised Corbyn as a racist and anti-Semite and who had been threatened with disciplinary action by Labour (a threat since withdrawn) doubled down on her criticism saying "I have absolutely no doubt that there are those in the leadership who want to get rid of any opposition (to Corbyn) either by deselection or disciplinary action".  

And now the ex Leader of the Scottish Labour Party, Jim Murphy, has gone public paying for a full page advertisement in the Jewish Telegraph under the banner headline of "In Sorrow and Anger - An Apology" and criticising Corbyn for his failure to root out antisemitism within the Party.   In the article he labelled the Corbyn and his top leadership team as "intellectually arrogant, emotionally inept and politically maladroit".

Sheesh ... with friends like these Corbyn certainly doesn't need any enemies.


David said...

Corbyn strikes fear into the hearts of The Establishment and they will do anything at all to undermine his leadership and prevent a Corbyn led government, a government that would be good for all UK Citizens, not just the wealthy few. policies such as ending economic austerity, funding for the National Health Service, affordable housing, safer communities, and care for the elderly.

An excellent article by Robert Cohen gets to the heart of the matter.

It all began three years ago soon after Corbyn’s election as Labour party leader. What started off as allegations that he was allowing antisemitism to fester in his party unchecked have evolved into direct accusations that Corbyn is himself antisemitic.

I’m yet to see a credible piece of evidence that demonstrates that antisemitism is rife in the Labour Party. That doesn’t mean it’s non-existent but the claim made in the joint editorial that the “stain and shame of antisemitism has coursed through Her Majesty’s Opposition since Jeremy Corbyn became leader in 2015” does not stand up to scrutiny.

It’s impossible to understand the hostility against Corbyn from the Jewish community without acknowledging Corbyn’s long standing support for the Palestinian people and the need for their rights to be respected and internal law implemented. Take this fact away and the last three years would have been very different.

This week’s show of Jewish media unity was all about attacking Corbyn for failing to adopt “in full” the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism. This has become the pretext for all-out war against the Labour leader.

I’m not sure exactly when it happened, but the IHRA document has now become the ‘gold standard’ for our Jewish establishment in determining exactly what antisemitism is in the 21st century. This despite the fact that the IHRA webpage itself describes the document as a ‘working definition’, that is to say it’s a work in progress and a document to be studied, not a statute of government or a piece of international law.

But this appears to be far too much nuance for the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council which have led the community to war against Jeremy Corbyn.

Robert Cohen

The Veteran said...

David supporting Corbyn. Understandable if you (1) back Hamas and (2) believe that international Jewry is the only thing preventing Nirvana on earth.

Perhaps Corbyn should deport those who dare to criticise him to ..... Auschwitz.

David said...

In other words, you've got nothing.

Anonymous said...

Veteran........what you are seeing is the classic straw man argument taken to industrial levels. Corbyn has always been anti Israel in as much as their Palestinian policies go but the anti Corbynites have muddied the waters by introducing anti Semitism, anti Zionism and anti Israel accusations which confuse the general populace, even I am confused at times. Accusing someone who constantly has met and has Palestinian friends of racism is just short sighted and quite stupid.

Meanwhile the same thing is happening to the Tory party with BOJO the clowns ill advised remarks on the Burkha. Now the centre is introducing accusations of Islamophobia against the right and the party is splitting. It seems that both parties are following the Goebbels line....find a scape goat and demonise them.

Given the furore over Crusher Collins attempt to link the PM to a site spewing out fake news on making Paedophilia acceptable I believe it is time to have MPs in both countries sign up to a code of conduct....we deserve better.

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

David ... got plenty. The Hamas Charter (affirmed in 1988) has Hamas committed to liberating Palestine (including modern day Israel) from Israeli occupation and the establishment of an Islamic State in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza strip.

Corbyn is on the record as having called for Hamas to be removed from the list of UK banned terror groups. Further, it is now revealed that Corbyn went on Irianian State TV praising the 1,000 convicted terrorists released by Israel in a prisoner swap as "brothers".

Old saying ... if it look like a duck, has feathers and quacks then it probably is a duck. Corbyn meets all those criteria in spades. His anti Israeli antisemitic bias is paraded for all to see and good people in his own Party are calling him to account.

Anonymous said...

That should read "1000 Freedom fighters" as the only crimes were committed against Israel not the west........

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

Egbut 7.58 ... someones freedom fighter is another persons terrorist. I sincerely hope you're not suggesting that it is impossible to commit a terrorist crime against Israel because as a nation they are somehow 'untermensch' (now where have I heard that one before) and fair game for anyone.

No, I know you too well, correct me please.

Anonymous said...

When the situation changes people change their minds.

The Veteran said...

Anon 8.43 ... the 2017 Charter changes nothing. It sees a Palestinian State based on the 1967 boarders as transitional pending 'liberation' of all of Palestine. Only an idiot can fail to understand what that implies. It also rejects recognition of Israel which it labels as the Zionist enemy.

Put all that together and you can fairly ask ... whats changed. Answer ... not much.

I can agree with the two state solution but when you have one of the parties refusing to acknowledge Israels right to exist then words don't mean a damn.

David said...

Corbyn has always been anti Israel in as much as their Palestinian policies... which does not make him anti-Semitic, or as you claimed earlier, expresses a desire for a final solution!

There are very many people, Jews included, who oppose the policies of the Israeli Government.

I can agree with the two state solution but when you have one of the parties refusing to acknowledge Israels right to exist then words don't mean a damn.

I can agree with a two state solution, but when one of the parties continually occupies more territory, murders people defending their homes, and employs snipers to kill kids throwing stones, its hard to see them negotiating in good faith.

Hamas is not the government, the President and Prime Minister are both members of Fatah, one of 15 political parties to contest elections in Palestine.

BTW, did you bother reading the article I quoted? probably not, don't want your biases disturbed.

Anonymous said...

David..Excellent article..I missed it. Here it is for Veteran

We are in an era of change and all it will take is deaths of a couple of old Allah bothering farts for the Charter to be amended for the sake of the people. Everyone realises how impossible it is at the moment.

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

David ... yes I did. Cohen is one of a very small group of Jews who act as apologists for Corbyn.

Egbut ... I agree with the last sentence of your 3.08 post. You have still to respond to my 8.33.

For both. Your support for Corbyn bears a remarkable similarity to those who think Trump walks on water.

Anonymous said...

Veteran......your 8:33 throws little light on the word "terrorist". The first time it entered the public domain was in WW2 when the RAF night bomber crew were called Terrorflieger (terror flyers or terrorist airman) and were often murdered after bailing out.

Were the Viet Cong Terrorists or Freedom fighters....well that depends who won. Sorry rhetorical question.

Were the Jews terrorists?

Corbyn is right about one thing, you have to talk to terrorists at some point to resolve the situation that causes their grievances. If you continually attack people, as the israeli's do with Palastinians civilians, it fans the flames of dissent.

Eventually you have to talk, for goodness sake we have forgotten the Jewish terror attacks against the British, for example the Saint Davids Hotel Bombing or the hanging of two unarmed British sergeants. Members of this terror group, who were agrieved they had no Jewish state, went on to be members of the Israeli government, a fact that now seems to be forgotten.

In the immediate post war period the British were seen by the Jewish terror groups as the oppresors and they carried out terror attacks to eventually get their desired Jewish state, although the land belonged to others. No one doubts the suffering of the Jewish people, but that really doesn't excuse the killing of Palastinians, land seizure and blockades of Palestinian areas.
The only way this whole situation will be solved is by both sides talking, as Corbyn suggests and that will involve talking to terrorists just as in the past with the Jewish terrorists who went on to lead their country when they became politicians.

Lord Egbut

David said...

Dear Veteran, re Cohen's article, please refer to point 1.

Egbut, correct. But the apologists for the Zionists like to air brush history.

Anonymous said...

For both. Your support for Corbyn bears a remarkable similarity to those who think Trump walks on water.

I am not a Corbyn supporter, I have no dog in the UK political fights, I am just a pissed off humanist who has a gutful of every criticism of Israeli government policy being akin to wanting all the Jews gassed.

I have seen no proof of Corbyn's anti-antisemitism, but I do see him speaking out about injustices inflicted on Palestinians. Millions of people are being held in the open air prison that is Palestine and are routinely punished for the actions of a few.

I have just finished reading an article that has me alternating between rage and tears.

A confidential report by Israeli military police investigators seen by The Intercept explains how a tragic series of mistakes by air force, naval, and intelligence officers led to an airstrike in which four Palestinian boys playing on a beach in Gaza in 2014 were killed by missiles launched from an armed drone.

Testimony from the officers involved in the attack, which has been concealed from the public until now, confirms for the first time that the children — four cousins ages 10 and 11 — were pursued and killed by drone operators who somehow mistook them, in broad daylight, for Hamas militants.

The testimony raises new questions about whether the attack, which unfolded in front of dozens of journalists and triggered global outrage, was carried out with reckless disregard for civilian life and without proper authorization. After killing the first boy, the drone operators told investigators, they had sought clarification from their superiors as to how far along the beach, used by civilians, they could pursue the fleeing survivors. Less than a minute later, as the boys ran for their lives, the drone operators decided to launch a second missile, killing three more children, despite never getting an answer to their question.

Those involved in these murders, war crimes in fact, have not been punished. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised of they were given fucking medals!

I want to see them charged and punished. But I suppose that makes me anti Semitic.

Read it with a strong stomach.

Maybe I am wrong, and it was just a case of that fog of war thing that excuses criminality.

David said...

HMMMM Dunno wot 'appened, glitch in da Universe maybe.

Anon above isn't anon, I take ownership of my comments.

The Veteran said...

David ... this has descended into nothing more than you show me your atrocity and I'll raise you one. It would be stupid to suggest that it's all one sided.

For the Israelis the mantra is 'never again' and when you have one side refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Israeli State you have an impasse with no solution on the immediate horizon.

Corbyn is but a bit player in all of this and out of his depth as his past comes back to haunt him. His sympathy to the Palestinian cause may be genuine but his problem is that when you lie down with a dog that has fleas you can expect to be bitten.

For myself I'll stand alongside Israel. I can live with 'never again'.

David said...

It would be stupid to suggest that it's all one sided.

You mean people that there were very fine people, on both sides?

Well, it was one side who took the land of the other side. Didn't see much tension in the ME when Jews and Arabs lived cheek by jowl.

Funny how "never again" has transformed in to "what was done to us we will do to someone else.

Ha-Shoah was not caused by the Palestinians, but they have been paying the price ever since. The only just solution would have been to have established the Jewish State in Germany.

The Veteran said...

No David ... I'm suggesting that the Israelis see this as a war far for survival and in all wars shit happens.

Corbyn's sympathies are clearly with the Palestinians and, while he could afford to take that position as a backbench no-name MP who voted against his Party while in government over 500 times, as Party Leader he might expect to be called to account for his past actions and his continuing opposition to Labour signing up to the full IHRA definition of antisemitism.

I see now the Unison Union leader (Dave Prentis) has criticised Corbyn as costing Labour votes and harming Labour's historic close relationship with the Jewish community as well as costing 'us' the moral high ground from which to oppose all forms of racial hatred and oppression.

Tough words indeed from one of his own yet Corbyn remains stone deaf. You reap what you sew.

David said...

It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that Labour has accepted all of the IHRA definition with the exception of 4 clauses.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

So, a few days ago you were on your high horse defending the free speech rights of the Nazi Barbie, yet now you want to argue that the free speech of the people of The UK should be over ridden at the whim of a foreign body.

Israel can no longer claim to be the "only democracy in the Middle East" after the passing of its apartheid style "Basic Law"

The state of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, in which it actualizes its natural, religious, and historical right for self-determination.
c) The actualization of the right of national self-determination in the state of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.

In other words, tough shit Palestinians, tough shit Druze, you no longer count.

3. [The] unified and complete [city of] Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

Not according to International Law.

7. The state views Jewish settlement as a national value and will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.

Yep, once again, tough shit Palestinians, we're coming for your homes and businesses and you can't stop us.

And as for drawing comparisons to the NAZIs, well that's easy to do when you see Jews herd Palestinians in to concentration camps.

David said...

Looks like Corbyn is sitting with the majority of world leaders on this one.

To date, the working definition has been adopted and endorsed by the following governments and bodies: the United Kingdom (12 December 2016), Israel (22 January 2017), Austria (25 April 2017) Scotland (27 April 2017), Romania (25 May 2017), City of London (8 February 2017), Germany (20 September 2017), Bulgaria (18 October 2017), Lithuania (24 January 2018), former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (6 March 2018).

No USA. No New Zealand. No Poland. No Russia.

Still want to attack Corbyn when he has accepted the majority of the definition when your own nation can't even get its shoes on?

David said...

Just realised I was reading the wrong declaration. I was reading "Working Definition on Holocaust Denial and Distortion" instead of the "Working Definition of Antisemitism".

Interesting that it is prefaced with On 26 May 2016, the Plenary in Bucharest decided to:

Adopt the following non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism:

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

The Veteran said...

David ... so you admit you were talking shit ... figures.

David said...

No admission, a simple correction on one of the many documents I read. back to the point, why are you so down on Corbyn who has accepted most of the definition, and not your own government who hasn't accepted any. In fact, why isn't New Zealand a member state of IHRA?

Could it be anti antisemitism?

Still want to attack Corbyn when he has accepted the majority of the definition when your own nation can't even get its shoes on?

Anonymous said...

To quiet all argument why not just state that anti-semitism is anything Jewish people say it is.


David said...

And that Mick, is what the argument is all about. Corbyn has an independent mind at will not simply accept everything put in front of him by a Jewish group. Therefore Corbyn IS an anti semite. Or so they say.

The Veteran said...

David ... Corbyn's problem is all of his own making and stems from his refusal to commit to the full IHRA definition of antisemitism .... like this bit ...

The IHRA defintion says that its antisemetic to compare Israel to Nazi Germany. Corbyn says its ok as long as there is no evidence of antisemitic intent in doing so.

Give me feekin strength.

Wasn't aware of any Gas Chambers in Israel. Even Irving doesn't go that far.

This thread has reached its use-buy date. Nothing to be achieved in any further discourse.

David said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The Veteran said...

David ... can't you read? I terminated this thread.

David said...

Well, I guess my post struck a nerve or would have let it stand for anyone else who was interested.

How am I to know you terminated a thread when it is still alive and accepting new posts? that is not the definition of termination.

You did not terminate, you threw your toys out of the cot.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

You could try reading.