Friday, October 28, 2016


The news that various assorted peace group activists, so called, are gearing themselves up to protest the visit of the USS Sampson, a DG51 Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer, coming as part of the commemorations acknowledging 75 years since the establishment of the Royal New Zealand Navy, is as predictable as it is sad. 

No matter that the ship visit does not compromise our anti-nuclear legislation.   No matter that the protocols regarding the visit have been signed off or are in the process of being signed off for naval vessels from three other nuclear powers (India/China/France) to participate in the commemorations.   No, these rag-tag protestors will single out the USS Sampson as being about as welcome in New Zealand as a pork chop in a Synagogue.    They will give vent to their anti-American hate and rhetoric as they have done for the past half century.    Nothing changes for them ... they, along with ISIL/ISIS, view America as the 'Great Satan'.   Spot the connection.

The latest advice I have is that no Royal Navy ship is coming.   If that is confirmed it is disappointing.   The RNZN grew out of the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy.    While clearly the RN is stretched I would have thought they might have pulled out all stops in order to attend.    The fleet review in Auckland should be spectacular ... possibly the largest gathering of warships post WW2.


David said...

It is convenient to label it as "anti-Americanism", when it is in fact anti-American Imperialism.

they, along with ISIL/ISIS, view America as the 'Great Satan'. Spot the connection.

Yes, and the connection is that ISIL/ISIS/Daesh did not exist until the US invaded Iraq and destroyed the national government and almost all semblance of civil society. ISIS et al is a direct result of American interventionism in a sovereign nation.

The US destroyed what was left of the Iraqi military, jailed them in Camp Bucca, where they had nothing to do except plot their return.

I am not anti_american, I admire much about their nation and wish we had similar protections to the 1st Amendment (but not the 2nd).

But I am aware enough to see how much death and destruction the US has caused around the world in the last 50 years with military adventurism and its devastating war on drugs.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Bullshit, David. I know some of these people well and they are rabidly anti-America and everything to do with America, in spite of your wishful vapourings.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Further to last.

Not once in the last fifty years have any of these noisy, smelly pricks had a word to say about Russian imperialism.


Because they were being funded, and likely still are, by Moscow.

David said...

Because they were being funded, and likely still are, by Moscow.

Like Donald Trump?

The Veteran said...

David ... these 'protesters' are guilty of selective morality. I don't see them protesting against Russian Imperialism in the Ukraine or Crimea; I don't see them protesting against Chinese Imperialism in the South China Sea; I don't see them protesting against rogue states gone feral like North Korea or Zimbabwe or Venezuela. I see them targeting Israel; while ignoring the excesses of Hamas ... I can go on and on and on if you like. Their mantra ... US bad, nothing else matters.

The US ain't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Just look at the two clowns vying for the Presidency. But there is much to admire and its many good qualities far outweigh its many faults.

Of course theses protestors have a right to protest just as I have the right to point out their selective morality and I am.

David said...

I don't see any Russian, Chinese, North Korean, Zimbabwean or Venezuelan ships making visits. Do you?

I don't see Australian and New Zealand military lives being wasted in pursuit of Russian expansionism, or Chinese island building. Perhaps if NZ behaved as less of an American lap dog there would be less reason to protest American military adventurism.

Israel is targeted because it is a rogue state, a spreader of terror. It is an invader of other nations.

pdm said...


And Hamas is????????

The Realist said...

I bet these protesting feckless morons wouldn't be worried when the Americans turned up in the early 1940s.

Anonymous said...

I don't see any Russian, Chinese, North Korean, Zimbabwean or Venezuelan ships making visits. Do you?

David , the front page of the Herald recently had a very large photo of a Russian spy ship in Auckland Harbour .
Just a word of advice , if your going to pretend to be unbiased , get your facts right first

Andrei said...

". I don't see them protesting against Russian Imperialism in the Ukraine or Crimea;"

That is because there isn't any Russian imperialism in Ukraine and Crimea Veteran!

Crimea was part of Russia before Captain Cook ever sighted New Zealand

NATo coveted tha ancient Russian Naval base of Sevastopol for its pox ridden sailors and VVP out played them thats all

Actually most of Ukraine apart from the far west was part of Russia long before the USA even existed - Ukraine is a Bolshevik construction, constructed to snooker the Poles in 1922

Of course Ukraine as a nation is ruined now, ruined by the desire of the NATO to expand its necrotic tentacles further East = 12 countries have been added since the dismantling of the Warsaw Pact in 1990 . 12 countries Veteran!

And they want to add more - WHY?

The Veteran said...

David ... the Russians arn't coming (they're not a Pacific player). The Chinese are sending a ship. North Korea ain't welcome (we're still technically at war with them). Zimbabwe doesn't have a Navy while the Venezuelan Navy is tied up with the country broke thanks to their socialist experiment gone belly up.

Remind me how many times Israel has been invaded by other countries.

Take your blinkers off.

Anonymous said...

Realist...It's a pity they did not turn up in 1939 instead of selling the Luftwaffe lubricating oil. US oil and Swedish bearings helped bomb New Zealand troops.

PDM........Hamas is now recognised by the international community.

Iraq was a preventable disaster caused by the stupidity of Bremner, W Bush and Rumsfeldt in trying to buck historical fact by isolating the Baath party which led to Isis. If we had locked up all the Nazi's instead of using their knowledge and contacts Europe would be in the same state as the Mid east today. It was the British who rearmed the Japanese troops in 1945 Vietnam to control civil disturbances caused by a power vacuum.

As for the protesters you can either be authoritarian and ban them or or just suck it up as a part of a democratic country. I was a part of the Rugby Apartheid protests way back and it quickly became apparent that I was the only person around who had actually experienced the horrors of that abominable system, what was also apparent was that the protesters were far more knowledgable about the subject than those who mocked them....... Oh yes, I and others were immediately labelled communists

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

Andrei ... the Warsaw Pact was a creation of the USSR maintained by force. Once the USSR fell apart it disintegrated (dismantled is a too gentler word) ... NATO is a grouping of 'free' nations. You can opt in and out and in again (as France did).

Funny that 10 ex-Warsaw Pact countries (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Albania rushed to join as soon as they could to gain a measure of protection against Russian imperialism which they knew well.

As for the Ukraine ... try peddling your crap to Malaysian Airlines.

The Veteran said...

Egbut ... Hamas is listed as terrorist organisation by Australia, Canada, the UK, the EU and the United States. It is banned by Jordan. Their 1968 Charter (still extant) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement by a Palestinian Islamic State covering Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The Charter states ... "There is no solution to the Palestinian question except through Jihad".

I agree with you the right to protest ... but it is somewhat amusing not the selective morality that exists in the so called 'peace' movement where the United States is targeted as the font of everything that is evil in the world.

Anonymous said...


The EU including the UK recognises Hamas as the voice of the Palestinian people.

When people protest about other countries it receives very little media coverage as it's not sexy enough for the news. No coverage has been given to the many Muslim street protests against Daesh in the the EU so it never happened.

Lord Egbut

Andrei said...

"Funny that 10 ex-Warsaw Pact countries (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Albania rushed to join as soon as they could to gain a measure of protection against Russian imperialism which they knew well. "

You just display how little you know Veteran - gross ignorance

Albania for example was never part of the Warsaw Pact and was aligned with China not the Soviet Union pre 1990

Yugoslavia was non aligned throughout the cold war but with the fall of the Soviet Union was bombed into submission by NATO, its industry destroyed and now dismembered much of it occupied by NATO just as the saame lands were occupied by Nazi Germany in the forties

Most young people in the Baltic republics have to leave to work in menial jobs in Western Europe since the NATO occupation of their lands - Poland loses over 20% of its young. look it up

Here is a partial list of countries that the USA and/or NATO have attacked since 1990
Somalia 1993
Bosnia 1994, 1995
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Yemen 2002
Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
Iraq 2003-2015
Afghanistan 2001-2015
Pakistan 2007-2015
Somalia 2007-8, 2011
Yemen 2009, 2011
Libya 2011, 2015
Syria 2014-2015

Who has Russia attacked? You will claim Ukraine and Georgia knowing nothing about what really happened there or the American coups to install quisling regimes that those countries have endured

NATO is like a necrotic tumour on the world - a stinking, rotten cancer!

And if you think any nation that NATO has got its tentacles in can leave you are really incredibly naive

Bulgaria had an attempt but immediately suffered a major "economic crisis" a visit from John McCain and others then the Government fell to be replaced by one that would obey the dictates of Washington


Anonymous said...

Jeez....revisionist history on steroids from our man in St Petersburg. Yugaslavia under the rule of Tito not aligned with Russia...give me a break. This obviously is not the same Communist Tito who butchered the monarchist partisan groups during WW2.

Nato did not bomb Yugoslavia or invade it, Yugaslavia ceased to exist in the 90's. It bombed Serbia who, with a wink and a nod from the Russians invaded Croatia and Bosnia on mission of genocide. Nato can't occupy anything as it is not a political entity and most of Polands young are in the UK making money because they have the freedom to do so...something about belonging to the EU helps. It is the repatriation of money from these people in the "west" and EU subsidies and grants that is helping the old Soviet bloc countries get back on their feet after after being run down to the bare bones by Moscow.

As conditions improve in the old Soviet bloc people are moving back and starting businesses, something you ought to try instead of being a deskbound propagandist for a far right egotist like Putin.

Sometimes you have valid points to make Andrei but they get lost in the fog of bullshit that you feel obligated to churn out.........

Lord Egbut Nobacon

Noel said...

Reminds me of my trip across the ditch for Long Tan day. By the time I got there it changed to a political spat.

Let Operation Neptunes origins be the focus and not politics.

The Veteran said...

For Andrei ... check your 'fact-checker'. Albania was a member of the Warsaw Pact from 1955 to 1968. Check your eyesight ... in my comment I never mentioned Yugoslavia ...
although two of its 'provinces' (Slovenia and Croatia) joined NATO in 2004 and 2009 respectively.

Who has Imperial Russia attacked? How far back do I go .... perhaps Finland in 1939 for starters and then they really got going.

For Egbut ... the decision by the EU to remove Hamas from EU's blacklist was based on procedural errors and "did not imply any substantive assessment of the classification of Hamas as a terrorist group" (your link). I fail to see how an organisation who has as its Charter the destruction of Israel by war and its replacement by an Islamic State is anything but a terrorist organisation.

For Noel ... best post on topic.

Andrei said...

"...perhaps Finland in 1939 for starters

That was the Soviet Union not Russia Veteran, which may seem like splitting hairs to you, probably does but it isn't

And the issue was over Karelian Ladoga an issue that arose during the Russian civil war and the declaration of Finnish independence - we could discuss that history and why Karelian Ladoga was so important but as a clue it lies immediately North of what was then Leningrad and was vital to the defence of that city (c.f. Then Leningrad Blockade of 1941-1944 that cost 1.5 million lives)

It is easy to look at things that happened 75 years ago in the context of a major war that was itself a continuation of an earlier war that upended the stability of the European continent for a generation and say bad things were done - you wont object to the British invasion of Iran (a neutral nation) with the Soviets a year later though will you?

Try and be intellectually honest

And Veteran the latest addition to NATO is Montenegro, a territory about half the size of Southland and with a population about half that of the South Island who are now among the poorest people in Europe - do you know why Montenegro is so important to NATO? It is because it means that Serbia is now landlocked - this is why it was separated from the rump of Yugoslavia

It means NATO actually the USA now completely dominates the Balkans

The biggest American military base in Europe is of course in Kosovo, another region with an impoverished population, though rich in minerals - a region seized from Serbia in 1999 by bombing rump Yugoslavia, including Montenegro, for 40 days and nights non stop until it surrendered it - it is called Camp Bondsteel and it holds the entire Balkan peninsular hostage, which is its real purpose

In any case it is clear the world order as we have known it is collapsing and whether or not we avoid WW3 remains very uncertain but the Western world cannot dominate the rest and dictate the rules to suit itself and in attempting to do so puts all of humanity at risk

Adolf Fiinkensein said...


You are pushing shit uphill.

Andrei said...

Adolf and Veteran here is the first part of Vladimir Putin's Valdai speech from two days ago = I have heard the whole thing as it was delivered but only this part is thus far translated (it is a big job)

But listen and learn and compare this rhetoric coming from Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump

Then ask yourself who is the adult in the room

This is important

The Veteran said...

Andrei ... I prefer to look at what Putin does over what he sez. There is no doubt in my mind that Putin seeks an Imperial Russia challenging the US role as the world's policeman. In that context I suspect Putin would welcome a Trump victory given his various pronouncements which would suggest he (Trump) prefers isolationism over interventionism.

Putin's game plan is clear. Clinton's isn't. Does she favor open boarders (yes to one audience, no to another). Is she in favor of free-trade (the TPPA is the Gold Standard for trade agreements except when she talks to the Sanders wing of 'her' Party). No confusion with Trump ... just worry.

Andrei said...

"There is no doubt in my mind that Putin seeks an Imperial Russia challenging the US role as the world's policeman."

Did you do me the courtesy of listening to what I had posted?

Who appointed the USA as the "world's policeman"? And what qualifications does the USA have to assume this role?

In fact it is not the "world's policeman" it is more like a mafia Don with the muscle to force other people to bow down to its will and punish them with violence if they don't

This may surprise you but I am not against the American ship visit and I am ready to welcome the US Sailors as guests - but as guests who will go home again

And it is disappointing that the RN is not showing the flag

As an Island nation New Zealand needs to be on good terms with maritime powers but not as vassals to them

Lets have an honest and open discussion

Adolf Fiinkensein said...


"And what qualifications does the USA have to assume this role?"

It won the second world war and the ensuing cold war. You got any better bids?

Andrei said...

""And what qualifications does the USA have to assume this role?"

It won the second world war and the ensuing cold war. You got any better bids?"

No it didn't win the second world war Adolf - it held back until Nazi Germany had been defeated at Moscow, Stalingrad and Kursk - the first GIs set foot on European soil on the last day of the Kursk battle when a major engagement at Prokhorovka put the final nail in the fascists ambitions

The USA then occupied Western Europe and still does to this very day

The Red army went through Eastern Europe and took Berlin - its in the history books

But what is neglected in the history books is that the Nations of Eastern Europe, such as Romania and Hungary actually fought with the Nazis on Russian soil, actually invaded the Soviet Union - there were Romanians at Sevastopol and Romanians and Hungarians at Stalingrad and Kursk

Poland was not liberated by the USA or Great Britain but by the Red Army and the truth is neither the USA nor Great Britain could accomplish this task, they didn't have the man power nor were they geographically positioned to do so

The Red Army had far more men in the field than the Western allies, took far greater casualties and inflicted far greater damage. 90% of German casualties in WW2 came at the hands of the REd Army - Adolf

The USA did not win WW2 they came in late and grabbed the spoils

The Soviet Union collapsed 25 years ago - now the USA is on the same path if you want my opinion

The Veteran said...

Andrei ... I don't think the US jumped at the role of being the world's policeman given that up until WW2 it embraced isolationism. The reality is that it ended WW2 in such a strong economic position compared with the rest of the world that it inherited the role by default exacerbated by the Cold War. Put simply ... the so called 'Free World' looked to the US for leadership. Of the other two major (Western) powers the UK was bankrupt while France was preoccupied with retaining its colonial empire.

My essential point is that the US is, despite its many faults, essentially a good nation. Not sure about Russia.

Great that you welcome the US ship visit.

This is an honest an open discussion.

Andrei said...

"My essential point is that the US is, despite its many faults, essentially a good nation. Not sure about Russia."

That is because you are of an age to have served in Viet Nam and have had little to no contact with Russia and Russian people who in the culture in which you were nurtured were the "other"

Most people mean well

But if you watch Hollywood movies the Russkis are the baddies who speak broken English, nothing like a real Russian accent btw and do not use the idioms of Russian speakers nor have their mannerisms - its hilarious really

I'll show you something funny - I love this film

The lady is supposed to be an American called Marion Dixon who gave birth to a black child and was nearly lynched for it in the USA and who finds refuge in the USSR. The movie starts with her escaping the lynch mob

The villain is supposed to be German - this is from the 1930s when Fascism in Germany was in the ascendant

This sequence is in "English" but does this actresses English convince you she is an American :)

The Veteran said...

Andrei ... don't patronise me pse. Been to 'your' homeland. Liked it. Ordinary people are great with a certain sense of (black) humor. System of government leaves me cold though. There are no real checks and balances in place and the judiciary sure ain't independent.

gravedodger said...

Andrew has an interesting take on history.
Yes the red army did some brutal and costly fighting to drive the Nazi army both Wehrmacht and the SS out of Russia, how different would their task have been if The Georgian and Molatov had not sold the west a pup with the Ribbontrop Molotov pact and had protected Polish sovereignty in 1939 instead of conniving to carve the place up with Hitler
Oh that's right Stalin had destroyed his military command structures with murderous purges in the 1930s and when Operation Barbarossa was launched still had not fully reinstated a military leadership fit for purpose.

As the invasion rapidly arrived at Stalingrad Leningrad and Moscow, Stalin who had gone awol for days in total disbelief that Herr Schikelgruber could be as deceitful and dupliticious as he was, had the "luxury of being able to take his industrial might beyond the Caucusus and simultaneously bring the defenders of his Far East divisions to augment those fighting the Nazi machine, because Sorge was able to reassure that Japan did not have any plans to enter Russia's Far East.
Meanwhile poor old UK could go nowhere and suffered some appalling reverses from U Boats and the Luftwaffe.
America meanwhile as pointed out above was strongly isolationist and it was the pivotal Pearl Harbour attack that brought their industrial might to bear.
Yes Swedish "neutrality" created anomalies and there was plenty of assistance in the conquered Low Countries particularly the Dutch and many French preferred Nazi to Anglo.

Most commenters have a very limited understanding how things played out seventy five years ago there were many what seem now to be puzzling decisions made and few actually understand how close things were in 1943 when I turned up and it was all downhill from there for Schiikelgruber but one month earlier Cairo, Stalingrad, and even Moscow were well within reach of a Nazi victory.

Anonymous said...

There is now to much going on now to give a coherent reply. Everybody has scored points, everybody has been right in some aspect and everybody has been wrong. Except Adolph who just yaps in the background.

The past is a different country and comparisons with the mindset of yesteryear are pointless. A story Abe Lincoln told.....a farmer friend was outside when his youngest came rushing up shouting that Marylou and the hired hand are going to pee on the hay. What makes you say that enquired the farmer. Well Marylou has got her skirt up and the hired hand has dropped his trousers...........Like some of Andrei's posts the facts were right but the conclusions wrong.

The USA does not or did not occupy France or the low countries nor is NATO a political power that dictates policy. The USA was the defacto Government in France until 1948 when the rubble had been swept away.

Journalistic freedom has deteriorated in Russia to the point where criticising Putin is dangerous. Check out murdered journalists. Under those circumstances Andrei does not have the right to criticise the leaders or potential leaders of the West unless he subscribes to the view of press freedom.

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

Score one for Egbut.