Wednesday, July 6, 2016

"Taking a thing apart is always faster than putting something together. This is true of everything except marriage." And Brexit

Brexit shows that when it comes to social engineering the Tories are buggers for it to an even greater extent than Labour. I'm sure Britain will cope, because its component peoples have had long and intensive previous experience with massive change landed on them due to some arcane dispute between upper-class twits, but it's still very annoying to watch it happening as someone who's still a citizen of the place.

It's not without amusement value, though. Boris Johnson expressed the views of many Leave-camp Tories with these comments:

I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.

The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation...

We've seen a lot of this in the last few weeks - Brexit actually means Britain gets to negotiate a new agreement with the EU, in which it will keep free trade and freedom of movement while keeping out the EU citizens it doesn't want and getting rid of various inconvenient things like being obliged to observe the EU's human rights provisions. 

It's like watching a man who's filed for divorce and is now trying to convince himself that this doesn't mean his marriage is over, it's just an opportunity to negotiate a new relationship with his wife in which he'll still live at home and get to fuck her and have her do most of the housework, but he'll be relieved of having to do things like listen to her nagging, or putting his money into a joint account.   Hello-o?  Wake up, dumbass!  You're dreaming!


Noel said...

"The French presidential frontrunner Alain Juppé has said he would likely scrap the decade old Le Touquet agreement with the UK and place the border between the two countries on British soil."

One of the drivers for Brexit was immigration.

With Calais and Dunkirk our of the mix the immigration courts and border agencies will have to employ more people.

paul scott said...

Britain is without a leader. Certainly without a leader who is prepared to follow up on Brexit. Milk sop Daddy in Britain till wants to fuck Mummy at the Empire, and Mummy will fuck him so good. The European unelected New World socialist Order will have their way.
Cameron is a scheming traitor, I would shoot him and take what comes.

paul scott said...

Well not really. Its illegal to shoot people, and anyway you get the Cox effect. Cameron could have a dreadful retirement from Politics. The Brexit voters will observe what democracy means. They may see that the Empire means no democracy, and no exit at all. If so Britain political left and right could tear themselves apart. Every reason for New Zealand to be slow and suspicious of major alliances which impose regulation on us.

Angry Tory said...

Looks like the next PM will be Theresa May, aka "Britain's Merkel"...

JC said...

Culturally Britain is Britain and despite the protestations of some Brexiteers it's not really European and has a historic role on the Continent and in the rest of the world that is not well served as just another European country bound to Brussels.

Its right and likely very important it leaves the EU and despite the complexities involved it will be good for the country and the free world to have it independent again.

But Europe is in a dangerous situation.. it really has no collective security except that supplied by Nato and the money and muscle supplied by the US. Europe will be lucky to survive another Obama at the wheel.


Anonymous said...

Do you mean Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, the womanising journalist who was sacked for telling porkies and who was caught trying to arrange with a convicted fraudster the assault on another journalist from a rival paper.
Is it the same Johnson who whom Max Hastings much respected ex editor of the daily telegraph and author of many war histories called an absolute shit and who devote an entire column in joyous relief that said Mr Self Entitled Tosser had eliminated himself.......unfortunately like the rest of the shits in the political world you cannot get rid of them entirely.

JC. Only those over 50 think that Britain is not European. The Young with their better education in European history and far better grasp of languages ARE European.

Lord Egbut

Angry Tory said...

The Young with their better education in European history and far better grasp of languages ARE European.

not anymore they're not!

Anonymous said... seem to be confused between the legal differences of a non binding referendum and a parliamentary vote.

My reading of what is happening behind the scenes is that it seems increasingly unlikely article 50 will be triggered.

Please note I am responding to you as an adult...please try and post sensible replies.

Lord Egbut Nobacon

JC said...

"The Young with their better education in European history and far better grasp of languages ARE European."

Then they are unworthy of their heritage and unbelievably poorly educated.


Lolita Brother said...

Egbut. This is not a smacking referendum.

22 feb 2015 " The Prime Minister’s spokeswoman said today “a vote to leave is a vote to leave” and suggested that Article 50 would be triggered immediately if the referendum vote were for Leave.
This was confirmed by David Cameron in the House of Commons, adding that Article 50 is the only way to leave. When it is triggered is ultimately up to the UK government but it is hard to imagine that it could be significantly delayed after a leave vote. "

"In practice he has repeatedly promised that the result will stick – and there may be no going back on that line now."

Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him.

Angry Tory said...

Egbut - legally perhaps they are European, but the die is cast: it's only a matter of time before their "rights" to travel, live, or work in the EU are gone for good.

The point of BREXIT is to stop Poles and Romanians coming to live in the UK. Fine. UK Citizens lose the same right wrt the EU.

David said...

Lolita, Guy Fawkes is dead, executed for treason when he attempted to over throw the legitimate government to institute a Catholic Theocracy.

Remember remember the fifth of November
Gunpowder, treason and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...

David said...

Some people are afraid, very afraid of anyone who is slightly different. Those people usually end up becoming Angry Tories, railing against shadows, fighting long lost wars and wishing death to anyone who tries to point out their stupidity.

Others are open to new ideas, new experiences and a general increase in human knowledge. One of those is Brian Cox, and man whose views are worth far more than those of the spittle flecked ravings of an angry old fart.

He thinks ongoing scientific research at all levels is vital. Which brings us, almost neatly, and inevitably, to Brexit — the elephant in every room, pub and Uber journey in the capital. Last weekend thousands of people marched from Trafalgar Square to Parliament to protest against the planned departure from the EU. I ask what effect Brexit will have on the amount of money available for research. “I promised myself I wouldn’t really talk about it,” he demurs. There’s a pause, before he quietly but convincingly does so.

"What you can say as a fact is that we receive more than a billion currency units a year. Pounds, euros, whatever it is, it’s about a billion,” he begins. “So the first question is what happens to that. It’s obviously a big hit to the university research base. That’s extremely problematic.” A member of the Royal Society’s staff points out that “10 per cent of university research funding comes from the EU”. Cox nods.

“Even more urgent is the position of EU nationals in our system,” he says. “Not only in lectureships and professorships but post-docs and students. All these things need addressing. But it’s not just science. There’s an enormous list.”

Britain needs to listen to Brain Cox, not angry old has beens like Farage, Johnson and all the other ill educated yobs that permeate the English Right.

Anonymous said...

Lolita........Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the days wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

PM ... sage post. You vote Brexit and you get Brexit and most people, with the exception of Egbut, get that. Whether Joe public made an informed decision or voted on emotion is beside the point. Out means out and now it 'remains' for the UK govt to negotiate the best possible deal they can get against from the EU who will be singing from a different song sheet. The reality is that anyone who thought they could vote 'leave' and all that would happen in that a few pesky rules (many actually) would be consigned to the dustbin of history and everything else would continue unchanged probably also believes in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

Brexit has huge risks. It also presents some opportunities. Minimizing the risks and maximizing the opportunities is the challenge for the new PM not helped by an Opposition Labour Party in total disarray.

Anonymous said...

Veteran.......there is so much going on behind the scenes in the UK and Europe that has been over shadowed by the Chilcott report.

There are no negotiations about anything until article 50 is triggered, then it is to late. The city will lose it's "Euro passport' that is a given so London will play second fiddle to Frankfurt and lose the country billions in the process.

A court will decide whether it is legal to trigger article 50 without a parliamentary vote so nothing is cast in stone. Many thousands of people have written to their MP's of both colours and those in marginal constituencies are shitting bricks over the next the mean time Corbyn is packing them in at meetings and his extraordinary attack on Blair after Chilcott showed him not only as statesman but man in tune with the people.

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

Egbut ... Brexit means Brexit and in a democracy the people re right even when they're wrong (not original). Parliament is supreme and yes, the referendum was non-binding, but the leadership of the major players in Westminster have stated publicly that they will abide with the wish of the people as expressed in a democratic vote. I can understand why Cameron has left it to his successor to trigger article 50 and, for the record, I think May (as a 'Remainer') will do a better job than her Brexir opponent in negotiating the break and uniting the Conservative Party.

As for Corbyn and we will agree to disagree. A functioning democracy needs an effective opposition.
Labour right now ain't an effective opposition ... can't be when all but 40 of its MPs see Corbyn as unfit to be their leader.

Psycho Milt said...

It will be interesting to see what happens when those MPs have to go back to the party membership to renew their candidacies, having attempted a coup against the guy that party membership elected their leader.

Parliament is supreme and yes, the referendum was non-binding, but the leadership of the major players in Westminster have stated publicly that they will abide with the wish of the people as expressed in a democratic vote.

That was very stupid of them - NZ governments are careful to remind people voting in referenda that they're non-binding and the government therefore won't be bound by the result. This is a real poisoned chalice for Cameron's successor - if she bypasses Parliament to trigger Article 50 she'll be solely responsible for the damage that ensues, but if she doesn't bypass Parliament there's a good chance the MPs will put the good of the country first and refuse to pass the required legislation, in which case she'll cop the blame for Parliament ignoring the referendum result. You can certainly see why Cameron didn't want it.

On the plus side, there'll be a large number of people who'll remember who's actually to blame for all this: Farage, Gove and Johnson.

The Veteran said...

PM .... except when a referendum is designated as binding (as in the case of our flag referendum). As for Remain vs Brexit and it was always understood that it was to be a binding vote until the 'wrong' side won in which case some 'remainers' started rabbiting on about the supremacy of Parliament.

I am against referenda except where the argument can be easily understood as in the case of the flag debate. You expect parliamentarians to govern and govern they should.

Yep, it's going to be interesting to see how the Corbyn thing plays out. I suspect that those on the right side of the political divide will be cheering him on all of the way. He has my best wishes.

Anonymous said...

The first high court challenge starts on 19th July brought by a private citizen (a Hairdresser). It took a a parliamentary vote to join the EEC as it was known then and almost all constitutional lawyers agree that article 50 cannot be triggered by a PM alone but by a vote in the house of commons.

ALL newspapers are damning Corbyn with faint praise, if at all. The more they try and spin him out of contenetion the more people turn up at his meetings. Quite simply even the dimmest kid on the block knows that the vested interests are running scared.

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

Egbut ... I suspect the High Court will find it difficult to overturn a decision of the majority as expressed in the referendum result although anything is possible if you get an 'activist' judge.

Re Corbyn ... 'vested' interests in the Labour Party? I suspect not, just a realization that elections are about winners and that Corbyn is a loser. As for his election rallys ... well the Trots (read Momentum) are pretty good at mobilizing all manner of the disaffected left and all power to their elbows. As I said, I suspect that many on the right side of the political spectrum will be cheering them on. Dan Jarvis and that's a different ball game.

Psycho Milt said...

PM .... except when a referendum is designated as binding (as in the case of our flag referendum). As for Remain vs Brexit and it was always understood that it was to be a binding vote until the 'wrong' side won...

It was "understood" as such by the chinless wonders whose dispute resulted in Cameron arbitrarily declaring a referendum, but the Conservative Party isn't Britain, its infighting isn't a matter of the national interest, and strategic decisions taken by the country are for Parliament to establish, not glorified opinion polls.

It's good that you mention our flag referendum, as both that and the EU referendum arose not from mass political action by a significant proportion of the electorate, but from the whim of the respective Prime Ministers, and to suit their own political ends. There's no obligation for anyone who isn't in the governing party to respect such referenda.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...


"..... always understood that it was to be a binding vote ...."


Did someone at the Guardian deam that one up?

The Veteran said...

PM ... take issue with your 'whims'. Not true. In both cases the promise of a EU/Flag referendum were part of the governing parties election manifesto endorsed by the electorate at the time of the general election.

I find it somewhat hilarious that people argue for referenda as an example of democracy in action until the vote goes against them when they cry foul.

Perhaps the way forward is to make all referenda non binding in which case it is over to Parliament to progress the matter as it thinks fit.