Tuesday, March 15, 2016

ON THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL (YET AGAIN)

The farce that is the Waitangi Tribunal continues.   I accept the Tribunal has a role in recommending settlement of land grievances.   That process has largely concluded except for Ngapuhi who would have difficulty trying to organize a piss up in a brewery.

But as that process winds down 'vested interests' have found new ways to prolong the life of the Tribunal and (by extension) their 'gravy train'.   Three separate claims being the Military Veterans Kaupapa Inquiry; the TPPA  Inquiry and now the Inquiry into the Corrections Department are simply an abuse of process.

For c*********s, submissions into the Military Veterans Kaupapa Inquiry here in the North are being co-ordinated by a supposed Maori veteran who claims he flew fighter jets out of Terendak Garrison in Malaya (somewhat difficult as the dirt runway was only rated for Twin Pioneer ac) before going on to fly jets in Vietnam for the USAF.   The TPPA is an agreement between sovereign countries and, last time I looked, Maoridom ain't a sovereign country (except for Ngati Kahu which claims it is) and will be endorsed (or otherwise) on its merits by Parliament representing all New Zealanders.   As for the inquiry into Corrections and the fact that Maori are over-represented in prison statistics and I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the best way for Maori to get their numbers down was to stop bloody well offending.   When the Hone Harawiras of this world point the finger they forget that in doing so three other fingers are pointed back straight at them.    Case at point ... you would have been appalled at the TV coverage last night of four/five clearly Maori teenagers, one carrying a baby, trying to rob the Redhill Superette in Papakura.    Their actions are NOT the fault of society.   Their actions are theirs alone and there are consequences and should they be found guilty and sent to prison then sobeit.    Likewise the 'gentleman' at the center of the police shooting drama. Not about race .. all about criminals who need to be put away.

The only good news is that Government is not bound by the Tribunal's decisions and neither it should be.   The better news would be that if Parliament decided that the Tribunal's mandate was over.   I say Parliament because Government could not do that by fiat.  Problem is that there are too many vested interests in Parliament too for that to happen.   The reality of MMP.

  

37 comments:

Anonymous said...

Boring.... your belittling of the Military Veterans Kaupapa Inquiry has already appeared in other posts. Move on people.

The Veteran said...

Anon ... an Inquiry that deserves to be belittled because it is a farce going nowhere by a Tribunal that is fast becoming a farce.

Shelldrake said...

To get a flavour of the Veterans Kaupapa you need to read and understand the submissions. Whilst there may be some facts included a lot of it is just plain inaccurate and wrong. The issue is that there is no cross examination of the evidence. This means anything produced is taken as correct.

I think folks like the veteran simply see through the fiction. They are not belittling the veterans. They are protecting the reputation of the genuine personnel.

Anonymous said...

What defines "genuine personnel"?

Anonymous said...

The main instigator of the Maori veterans enquiry was the Church leader Vercoe, whose Whanau are also making some pretty outrageous claims about his Vietnam tour. It started out as containable but it has now spiralled out all control with the Law fraternity, both Maori and Pakeha, realising that this is a legal aid goldmine and certainly offering encouragement and flattery to Maori veterans to tell a story of mental hardship and neglect. So much so that veterans who have never considered them selves Maori have now discovered a distant ancestor and a Maori name.

The Justice dept, when asked under the FOI what the legal aid bill is so far declined to answer. The amount from the public purse must amount several millions with more to come. All for easily disproved claims which in the real Justice system would never have made it up the court house steps.

By the time you have finished reading about the most ridiculous Agent Orange stories and how the claimants turned to alcohol because of the mental anguish of having to shoot women and children you will want to get hold of the legal profession and give them a good shoeing.

Lord Egbut

Noel said...

When you consider TCCD studies of US,Korean,Australian and comparisions of North Vietnamese veterans who served in the South against those who did not all returned levels no greater than the general population.
And consider that Chloracne is the only causal condition and with an observable threshold and that is far higher than found in the general population.
And consider that there is no causal evidence of any other condition been caused by TCCD one can only conclude that all Agent Orange stories regardless of the forum are suspect.

Much better evidence that children of fathers with PTSD have causal outcomes but strangely no ones batting for them.

The Veteran said...

Anon ... genuine personnel = someone who has served their country in uniform and who doesn't embellish his/her service record. NZ, along with the rest of the world, has its share of 'posers'. As it happens I Chair a Trust which gives financial support to the children & grandchildren of veterans from the Vietnam conflict. Over the years we have received a number of applications from people who said their father/grandfather served in that war ... easy to check and they didn't.

Lord Egbut has it about right and I am interested in Shelldrake's comment that 'evidence' tended to the Waitangi Tribunal is not subject to cross-examination. If that is correct then it's another nail in the WT coffin.

I understand the Govt has applied to have the Corrections Inquiry struck out and that may be an indication that patience is wearing thin with the clear abuse of process.

Time to take the next step.

Anonymous said...

I get it. Those who don't make claims about Agent Orange and are not affected by PTSD are "genuine personnel".

Noel said...

Bit of back to the future in this thread.
The SHC or was it HSC was instigated because there was a perception that some Vietnam Veterans abusive e mails to Dr McLeod could reflect on "genuine personnel".

I don't remember any cross examination of written submissions, which were greater in number than verbal submissions.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:28 No, you don't get it. You will never get it nor do I believe you want to get it.

Lord egbut

Noel said...

Correction claim to be struck out.
Quite rightly. Justice put them in there.
The role of the corrections officer is to ensure they are fed bedded separated from harm (a difficult part of the job) and leave alive without any judgment. I haven't mentioned rehabilitation because generally it's a myth.

The Veteran said...

Noel ... the HSC Inquiry was instigated by Judith Collins and in response to the findings in the McLeod report (and the earlier Reeves Report) that NZ Vvets were not exposed to AO or the like. Some (many) veterans took exception to that and when the 'Masters' Map was produced that canard was exposed. The debate continues as to the effect of that exposure where there are a range of opinions on offer and certainly Lord Egbut doesn't resile from his contention that many of the claims don't stack up.

As to your point about cross-examination and you can't question a written submission if the submitter chooses not to be present. In the jurisdiction I am involved in written submissions, where the submitter chooses not to appear and have his/her opinion tested, are afforded less weight than one where the argument can be tested in cross-examination. There is substantial case law in support of that. I suspect that was the case with the HSC Inquiry but certainly those who took the trouble to attend and make verbal submissions were cross-examined at some length and this shows up in the HSC Report transcript.

Corrections does have a role in rehabilitation although you can argue the toss about how effective they are in carrying that out. It does however presuppose that their 'clients' want to be rehabilitated. Clearly some do but equally, some don't. Was talking to a Senior Corrections Officer just yesterday ... her view (for what it is worth) is that rehabilitation programmes in minimum security prisons are worthwhile and achieve results while those in maximum security prisons are, in the main, a waste of time with the majority of inmates treating them as a ticket clipping exercise designed to impress the Parole Board. I offer no comment on that but the lady in question has over two decades experience as a Corrections Officer.

Noel said...

"the submitter chooses not to appear and have his/her opinion tested, are afforded less weight"

There are a number of reasons why a submitter has to choose to appear or not.
PIC line and chemotherapy pump been one.

Anonymous said...

The masters map referred to did not have a single defoliation mission in it, on it or through it. The map has been lifted from a IATF tactical map showing land clearance by Rome ploughs, bull dozers and diesel.

The Masters map was never subjected to any sort of scrutiny or cross referencing with USAF fight records until recently. Like the Waitangi tribunal the Vietnam veterans select committee were there to listen not investigate .......it's basically a big fib.

Lord Egbut Nobacon

Noel said...

The irony is the "Masters Map" wasn't necessary.
The Australian Army Report which listed every Ranch Hand mission in Phuc Tuy by grid reference had been in Defence files since 1982 and was never given to Reeves or McLeod investigators. And no mention in the NZ Defence apology.
Disgusting.

Anonymous said...

Noel: I don't know what you are disgusted about. I cross referenced the flight paths and grid squares with all operations up until 30th June 1968 when the missions stopped.

There were only 12 missions flown while NZ troops were on OPS and they did not come within 20k of task force troops so if Reeves or Mcleod had the information it would only have reinforced their contention that NZ troops were never under a spray mission. Two thirds of NZ personnel arrived in country after the Ranch Hand program had stopped in Phouc Tuy.

Lord Egbut

Noel said...

The hypothesis changed with the focus on TCDD.
Your correlation should be seeking out those who were in a defoliated area for 1000 hrs.

Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy said...

It is safe to say that Vietnam Veterans are becoming very angry about the Liebunal. We are probably at the stage of presenting information to the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the Minister of Treaty Settlements and calling for at least a Ministerial Inquiry. If neither of these two gentlemen wish to take action then the opposition shadow ministers will be approached.

The only person we don't want involved is Skid Mark. He would do more to destroy our credibility than the Terendak Fighter Pilot.

Personally, I would like to see the entire tribunal, including Judge Isaacs, Lawyers and claimants sat firmly on their collective arses. They all are held in contempt by the Viet Nam Vet community.

Anonymous said...

Who's we?

The Veteran said...

Noel 5.16 ... point taken but the reality is as I explained. Part of the problem with written submissions is that many are a cut and paste job from a base document crafted by someone else where clearly the submitter has headed the call that numbers are important. Not necessarily the case ... it's the quality of the submission that counts and quality can be tested by cross-examination and, where it stacks up, the submission is inevitably afforded more weight in the decision making process.

Anonymous said...

TTSS once again. Who's We.

The Veteran said...

Anon ... can't speak for TTSP but he is a respected Vvet and is probably reflecting the outrage of many Vvets about the crap they are seeing in submissions to the WT. Like a soldier claiming multiple effects from AO when his visited Vietnam for a couple of days as a Bandsman, living in base areas and playing at concerts ... or the Whanau of a deceased veteran who claims he was routinely ordered to shoot women and children. Untested and unproven with many members of his Company still alive today and tainted by the allegation.

And if that's who he meant, include me in it.

Shelldrake said...

Noel,

The document used to prepare the pesentation the Health Select Committee was not the Australian document but the US document providing map detail of all herbicide missions flown in Phuoc Thuy province up to 1968 when they stopped.

Lord Egbut is correct. Never thought I would say that.

Anonymous said...

Vet at 3.36pm.

Well said. Include me to.

Anonymous said...

Shelldrake: There was NO US document. The Masters map is cut and paste of land clearing and the herbicide spray paths map was cobbled together by 2 Engineers Linton. It was made for the select committee and shows five times the land area sprayed and six times more then the gallonage used. It is an abomination and to call it a map is too kind.

Noel: TCDD exposure to ground troops was nonexistant, unlike the gorse sprayers of Marlbourgh who had Blood serum levels approaching 50pmm almost the same as the Ranch Hand aircrew

After extensive testing both groups are doing fine.

Loed Efgbut

Noel said...

You saying the Masters Map is a fake?

Media hype was that it lay in his trunk since his time in Vietnam.

Anonymous said...

Of course it was a deception (not Fake). It was taken out of the centre of a !ATF tactical map from 1972 showing areas where the land was cleared by the "Jungle Eaters". W2 was land clearing protection Coy right in the middle for a while. The different coloured areas show where regrowth had taken place and match the masters map perfectly except where the red lines showing TAORs have been magic markered into spray areas. We didn't have magic markers in those days!!
Media hype? No, presented as fact at a select committee hearing in breach of protocol where public servants are expected to tell the truth.

Even the huge brush that 2 Engineers used could not fit a defoliation run into the Masters map when you overlay it.. There was no US involvement at all, if there was they would have laughed.

Correction: Should have read 50ppt not 50ppm.

Lord Egbut Nobacon





Shelldrake said...

The map poduced to the committee was not the Master's map. It was a map compiled from data in a US document (Unclassified ) provided to the NZ Embassy in the US in 1982. It was based on the quaintly named "Herbs Tapes"

It povides the date of the mission, the map coordinates of the missions and the amount and type of herbicide applied. They were known as Agents Orange, Blue and White.

The Australian document was not used.

Noel said...

Sheldrake. The Aussie data was also derived from the "Herbs" but decades earlier.

Lordship was asked to forward

Ref; to Shelldrake
Noel Mar 2016 @ 4-21pm, and 1-54 am
The postings said that NZ troops while on Ops did not come within 20k of Task Force Troops.
I was on the advance party for W1 and our first patrol with V2 was about 3 clicks Nor east of Long Tan
area.
Then when the rest of W1 Coy our first patrol into the Long Green area,3 x C123s came right over us.
The troops were told not to look up, however the spray still landed on us, after, there was lots of
sneezing, scratching etc. Your clothes smelt with it.
Doug Stanton
W Coy

Anonymous said...

The select committee findings are on line and both the Masters map and 2 Engineers efforts at map making had no US or Australian input at all.

I have access to over 5000 documents relating to the Ranch Hand program and a personal stash of 500. Like all spray stories I have investigated this one is also false. Wrong for many reasons. The "Pumps on" height was about 150ft and speed was 130KIAS so they would on you and gone before orders could be issued. If you could see them that means the could see the ground so they wouldn't be spraying very expensive defoliant where it was unnecessary. The density of the spray was about a gallon to an acre and 24D and 245T were odourless and did not cause a reaction on the skin. Ranch Hand pilots flew in shirt sleeves with the front side windows open which caused some spray to enter the cockpit from the rear.
No mission EVER took place without a FAC in his little Cessna in constant touch with the circling escorts and all nearby firebases along with 1ATF in case they took ground fire. They lost about ten aircraft to ground fire with one called "the leper colony" taking 600 hits....they did not fuck around when they took hits and the last place you want friendlys is underneath a spray run.
Lastly the 1ATF RAAF air liaison officer, who held the rank of full colonel USAF, would have been court martialed for for allowing aircraft into our free fire zone.

An incident of aircraft taking our hats off while on ops would have every fire base within ten miles standing down and would be entered into the company and platoon diaries. No such entry was made.

There has been no recorded incidences of overflights in spite of over 100 "stories" I have looked at.

Lord Egbut

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Legbut

Just one part of your last comment raises doubt.

"...and 24D and 245T were odourless..."

I have considerable experience with both of these herbicides as an end user during the sixties and as a supplier to the agricultural industry during the seventies..

They were not odourless. You could smell the stench of phenol two miles from the factory where they were made and you could smell the same stench as the spray drifted.



Anonymous said...

Adolph, for christ's please do basic research before calling me a liar, I've been researching this for ten years and you pedal past a factory and your wildly inaccurate opinion becomes fact.

www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/81-123/pdfs/0173.pdf

Ditto 245T

Lord Egbut Nobacon

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Pity you've wasted ten years, Legbut. You remind me of our soils lecturer at Lincoln who was known as Old Podsols. Like you,he spent thirty years researching and came to no useful conclusions.

Your so-called research contains no mention I can see of the product being odourless.

I'm starting to get used to your FV ratio. The less facts, the more vitriol.


PS

There's no need to blaspheme. Tell your nurse to order more blood pressure tablets.

Anonymous said...

Adolf, I should really adopt Noel's attitude and ignore you. But I am sucker for punishment and live in hope that one day you will become a sensible and constructive blogger.

In the meantime read this link and if you can manage the attention span. In fact everybody who wants to comment on the Vietnam war and how things worked should read this. Some may not like it because it goes against preconceived beliefs fostered over the years by the media.

http://bluewaternavy.org/general/Alvin%20Young%207003%20acknowledge.pdf

Noel said...

47 years ago I asked myself the question "what was that stuff that made the eyes water".
Amazingly all the information was available but classified or deliberately made unobtainable.

Over the decades in dribs and drabs the information has become available.
But not without manipulation by all and sundry.

There in is the lesson.

When future service personnel suspect there may be a correlation with service and health of their colleagues, officialdom must show transparency and allow investigators access to all available information.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Legbut

I'm not going to waste my time reading another of your useless links. The last one contained no evidence to support your nonsensical statement that 24D and 245T are odourless.

With research like yours, it's no wonder you silly buggers lost the war.

Suggest you retire to your renovated U-Boat pen and stay there.

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