Sunday, January 10, 2016

JANE FONDA AND NOT MOVING ON

because I don't have to ... old story, but for many who served her treachery remains vivid in their memories. Fonda remains protected by the Hollywood effete liberal establishment no matter that in another time and another place she would be behind bars or worse as the Vietnam war equivalent of Tokyo Rose or William Joyce ... lucky her ... and to cap it all off she was caste to play Nancy Reagen in the Lee Daniels film 'The Butler' ... the 'Gipper' would have spewed.

For those gentle souls among you who don't have any idea about what I am on about (or choose to conveniently forget) let me remind you or perhaps, better still, I'll let others, much more qualified than I, to share with you their experiences of 'Hanoi Jane'.

This from Colonel Jerry Driscoll, an F-4E pilot, captured and incarcerated in the 'Hanoi Hilton' ... dragged from his cell, allowed to wash and dressed in clean PJs, he was ordered to describe to Fonda the lenient and humane treatment he was receiving at the hands of his North Vietnamese captors.  Instead he spat at Fonda and for this he was dragged away and clubbed and suffered severe head injuries.

And this from Colonel Larry Carrigan who spent six years in captivity.   He and others were paraded in front of Fonda who headed a peace delegation mission to North Vietnam.   His words ... we devised a plan to get word to the world that we were still alive.  Each man secreted in the palm of his hand a tiny piece of paper containing their details.   Fonda (with a NVA cameraman in tow) went down the line shaking hands and haranguing her us with such snippets as 'aren't you sorry you bombed babies' and 'you should be grateful for the humane treatment your are receiving from your benevolent captors'.   Believing this HAD to be an act they each palmed her their piece of paper ... she took them all without missing a beat and when finished she turned to the officer in charge and handed him all the pieces of paper ... three POWs died from the subsequent beatings they received.

And finally from Ronald Sampson, an economic adviser to the SVN government, captured in 19068 and held prisoner for over five years.   When Fonda was in Hanoi I was asked by the camps political officer if I would like to meet her.   My intention was to tell her about the real treatment that POWs received and how different it was from that purported by our captors and parroted by her as humane and lenient.   For my trouble I spent three days on a rock strewn floor on my knees with my arms outstretched with a large steel weight placed on my hands.   In addition I was beaten with a bamboo cane.    When I returned stateside I asked Fonda to debate my treatment on TV.   She never responded to my invitation.

As Vietnam veterans Fonda has our collective contempt ... I'm sure it is reciprocated being the poor little rich girl she is.   At least Tim Shadbolt had the gonads to apologise to the NZ Vvet community for any offense his actions may have caused.   Fonda never has and never will and we will never forgive her.


24 comments:

Anonymous said...

By pointing out the errors in your post does not mean that I have suddenly turned into a communist terrorist.

Fonda has apologized many times for what she considers a major mistake agreeing to visit the POWs.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/01/jane-fonda-regrets-hanoi-jane

What she will not apologise for is being an anti war activist and for that you cannot point fingers "I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it".......Not Voltaire by the way and as the US did not have the courtesy to declare war the charge of treason doth butter no parsnips. . What is generally gone unnoticed is that POWs had been wheeled out for US and International delegations before without all this hoohaa

Both sides used POWs as bargaining chips but who am I to spoil a small groups Cause celebre.

Time to move on.

Lord Egbut.

Anonymous said...

Actually a quick look at Snopes tells you it is complete bullshit.

C'mon Veteran get with the program, you are beginning to sound like Dodger.

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

Lord Egbut Nobacon

Psycho Milt said...

Reading that Snopes article, it seems the person who really needs to apologise to Vietnam veterans is the RWNJ who used messrs Carrigan and Driscoll's names for their propaganda lie, complete with made-up quotes.

Noel said...

By 1971 after that Pulitzer Prize article was published there were many young women who if given the chance would have copied "Hanoi Jane".
She was a product of the time albiet an ill informed one.
I don't see any reason to spit on her at a book launch.

JC said...

Perhaps we should roll with the statement reported there on Snopes by Mike McGrath..

"Mike McGrath, President of NAM-POWs, has also stepped forward to disclaim the Internet-circulated rumors about Jane Fonda and American POWs:
Please excuse the generic response, but I have been swamped with so many e-mails on the subject of the Jane Fonda article (Carrigan, Driscoll, strips of paper, torture and deaths of POWs, etc.) that I have to resort to this pre-scripted rebuttal. The truth is that most of this never happened. This is a hoax story placed on the internet by unknown Fonda haters. No one knows who initiated the story. Please assist by not propagating the story. Fonda did enough bad things to assure her a correct place in the garbage dumps of history. We don't want to be party to false stories, which could be used as an excuse that her real actions didn't really happen either.
I have spoken with all the parties named: Carrigan, Driscoll, et al. They all state that this particular internet story is a hoax and they wish to disassociate their names from the false story."

His comment..
"Please assist by not propagating the story. Fonda did enough bad things to assure her a correct place in the garbage dumps of history. We don't want to be party to false stories, which could be used as an excuse that her real actions didn't really happen either."

..would seem a suitable enough epitaph for Fonda.. there's no forgiveness for a series of very qualified apologies and no reparation either.

JC

Noel said...

Reminds me of a party I attended in Wellington 1971. A Navy guy came over and said "guy over there entertaining the crowd claims he just got back from Vietnam" I joined and asked a couple of questions. Came back and confirmed he hadn't served. "Aren't you going to offer a rebuttal". "Nah he's giving them what the want to hear". Should have listened to my own advice when I tried to reason with a young female when in uniform in Auckland three months later.



Anonymous said...

JC.. she is rich, famous and talented and has different point of view than you on the war.

Her "real actions" were to be an anti war activist rather like the four kids gunned down at Kent state
I suspect that the garbage dump is a more appropriate place for her detractors. Let us wait for veterans opinion on his own post when he wakes up.

Lord Egbut

Howie said...

I guess the apology and retraction for spreading RWNJ lies is coming from Vet any moment now...

The Veteran said...

Hmmmmm .... thank you for putting me straight. Clearly I should have checked further. This comment from McGrath is perhaps the most instructive ... 'Fonda did enough bad things to assure her a correct place in the garbage dumps of history'. There she shall remain.

McGrath's citation for his Silver Star is worth repeating .... 'For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity while interned as a Prisoner of War in North Vietnam from July 1967 to May 1969. His captors, completely ignoring international agreements, subjected then-Lieutenant McGrath to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes. Through resistance to those brutalities, Lieutenant Commander McGrath contributed significantly toward the eventual abandonment of harsh treatment by the North Vietnamese, which was attracting international attention. By his strong determination, extraordinary courage, resourcefulness, and selfless devotion to duty, Lieutenant Commander McGrath reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

JC said...

Your Lordship.. I agree Vet shouldn't have used the above story about Fonda because it overshadows the worse lies and accusations she threw against her own people and institutions about the war. Vietnam was in fact just one of her targets in her ambition to establish Communism as the way forward for America.

JC

Noel said...

"Vietnam was in fact just one of her targets in her ambition to establish Communism as the way forward for America."

That's too simplistic.

She was a member of counterculture revolution along with many of her generation where old values were questioned.
Anti establishment would be a better description rather than a particular ideology.


Anonymous said...

Hmmmmm .... thank you for putting me straight. Clearly I should have checked further

Yah moving on then? ROFL

Anonymous said...

Who were the NZ activists who spat on returning Vietnam Vets and subsequently became MPs?

Anonymous said...

Jane Fonda was young, naive, headstrong and passionate about her cause, she was also well read enough to know that the US had double crossed Ho Chi Minh and was the prime cause of the hostilities.

She was also women a enough to realise in later years that she made a mistake in visiting Nth Vietnam and apologised many times.

Tim Shadbolt also realised that by attacking the servants of the crown ie. the soldiers who followed the orders of the Govt of the day, he had overstepped the mark and with large gonads a wobbling he apologised.

In piece worthy of 1960's Pravda Veteran attacked Ms. Fonda in an article that if printed in the paper media would have had said gonads nailed to the wall by the legal fraternity. To be in attendance at a war does NOT automatically make it a just war and it becomes even more unjust if you slate people for exercising the democratic rights that the you say you are fighting for.

I believe that something better than "I should have checked" is called for particularly in view of your comment on Tim Shadbolts gonads.

Lord Egbut

The Veteran said...

Egbut ... get off your high horse ... I apologized. The article was sent to me in good faith by one of my soldiers (an ex WO1) and I published it. As I said, I should have checked further. My mistake. As for Fonda vs Shadbolt ... he never went to North Vietnam, he was never pictured manning an enemy anti-aircraft gun used to shoot down american planes. He was in a quite different league altogether.

As for her 'apology'. Reading the article you were good enough to reference and it has it that her 1988 and 2005 apologies coincided with action by Vvets to protest against films she was associated with and that some read 'a huge dollop of self interest in the apology'.

I guess the reality is that we will never know how sincere it was ... only she knows.

I repeat my initial ascertain ... if Fonda did what she did at another time and another place she would have ended up behind bars or worse.

Noel said...

"another place another time she would have ended up behind bars".

But she wasn't. Her old man a WWII Veteran wasn't against her actions.
A charge of treason could probably have been defended by the mediocre of lawyers.
As I said she was a product of her times.

Anonymous said...

It makes me sick to my stomach every time I see that disgusting crone on TV hawking some cosmetic snake oil.

Psycho Milt said...

if Fonda did what she did at another time and another place she would have ended up behind bars or worse.

Yep. And there are plenty of current jurisdictions in which opposing the government's military adventures will get you jailed or worse. However, that isn't a good thing.

Anonymous said...

At 2.37 you wrote er, nothing that resembled anything let alone an apology fulsome or otherwise.

I'm not sure how sincere apologies from anyone are but at least the effort is made but as I am talking to someone with the political instincts of a Doberman whose mission statement is Deny, Attack, Dissemble, Deny I shall waste no further time.

You hold a certain responsibility to research your posts as it makes all your future posts suspect.

Jane Fonda, whom I have a sneaking admiration for,is no different than the Veterans against the war who piled their bronze and silver stars in front of the Washington monument or the British ships in Haiphong harbour unloading supplies for the Nth Vietnamese. Strange times and as the past is a different country it does not pay to be judgmental or arouse ancient grudges.

Lord Egbut Nobacon who remembers yummy Barbarella.

Noel said...

"Opposing goverment military adventures can get you jailed."

Yup as that girl who kicked the tyres of the B52 found out. Jailed for destruction of federal property then on her return bleated about her incarceration. So much for been principled.

Sadly what's missing in most debates on Vietnam is the South Vietnamese.
Whether one believes the demarcation was legal or not the fact remains people moved to what the perceived would be a better life but were unable to achieve it.

The Veteran said...

Egbut ... I have to acknowledge that you have been a good teacher in attack politics. As for the original post, whats done is done and I'm going to have to live with that including your no doubt continued reminders.

But I guess overlaying all of this is my concern and belief that when the military is committed to operations by a duly elected government then, while it is legitimate to protest the decision (within limits and accepting there may be consequences), it is NEVER legitimate to direct your protest against those wearing the uniform and/or their families.

Because that's what occurred then and that's why there are media restrictions on most deployments nowadays. No-one should have to experience what happened to the wife of a colleague of mine serving in Vietnam to be rung up at 3.00 am in the morning by a hoax caller pretending to be an officer and telling her that her husband had been killed-in-action.

Some might see that as legitimate ... I don't, just like I don't see as legitimate Fonda posing on an NVA AA piece, c/w steel helmet, aiming it at ......

JC said...

I suppose its an age and time thing.. to put a kinder interpretation on some of the comments here.

At the time North Vietnam represented the creeping evil of Communism spreading throughout the world.. an ideology that has killed 70-100+ million people. The NVR was supported, armed and trained by the USSR and supplied military "advisors" throughout the US stage of the conflict, a similar level of support was given by China plus lesser but significant military support from North Korea and Cuba..

Contrary to revisionist history about 80% of Americans supported the fight against Communism in SE Asia and initially over 50% supported the US direct involvement in this very long running war.. it was really only the means used to oppose the Communists that caused the loss of support through the late sixties.. that and the quite wrong belief that the Allies "lost" the Tet Offensive, they didn't.

Interestingly Hanoi Jane wasn't protesting in any significant way during the 1960s..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Fonda#Opposition_to_Vietnam_War

.. she didn't appear on the scene till about 1970.. meantime the US military presence had gone from over 500,000 in 1968 to 334,000 in 1970, 24,000 in 1972 and 50 in 1973. By 1969 under Nixon the US was already pulling out of the war and fully committed to it by the time Jane stuck her nose in. Thats what grates on those of us around at the time.. she and her mates were simply the jackals that slunk into feed long after the warriors had returned home..

.. but not all of them.. here is John McCain's report of his treatment as a POW 1967-72.. he wrote this in 1973 so nothing revisionist here.. note the desperate attempts to force the prisoners to meet with anti-war groups for propaganda purposes.. maybe some can consider Hanoi Jane as at worse a useful idiot but I'm too old to accept that crap.. right now her modern sisters and half the girly men believe that all cultures are of equal value and European women should cover up in public so as not to arouse Muslim refugees, and they should most certainly not complain about their rapes and assaults by followers of the Religion of Peace.

JC

JC said...

Bugger.. John McCain's testimony is here:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/01/28/john-mccain-prisoner-of-war-a-first-person-account

JC

Anonymous said...

Warriors??? Jackals??? Creeping evil of Communism?? Time you read your history, stopped talking nonsense and trying to condense a 10,000 day war into sound bites. You need a visitor, what ward are you on?

Lord Egbut