Sunday, December 18, 2011


My father was confirmed by the Archbishop of Canterbury, I was married in the Anglican Church, I spent a wonderful 14 years at King;s College steeped in the Anglican tradition (and to forestall the inevitable comment from from my 'friends' no, I was not a slow learner).

Over the years I developed a respect for most of the worlds great religions (cults excluded) acknowledging that each has it's share of ratbags but that the vast majority are good people following the tenants of their faith.

And so it is that I am angry, very angry, that what many may consider to be the rouge parish of St Matthews in the City in Auckland should set out quite deliberately to offend New Zealand's half a million plus Roman Catholics by their insensitive billboard featuring Mary and a pregnancy test.   You can view the story here

I care not a toss for the weasel-words of the Vicar of St Matthews arguing that his is a 'progressive' congregation (spare me) and all that they want to do is to engage in honest debate .    Nor do I care for the refusal of the Anglican Bishop of Auckland to get involved.   Wimp out if you want to but someone has to speak up.   Your non action make me ashamed to be an Anglican and I may not be one for much longer joining the 77,000 who left the Church in the decade leading up to 2006.

Sad and, just before Christmas, unforgivable.


Psycho Milt said...

If you imagine the Anglican church is some kind of authoritarian heirarchy you may have mistaken it for the Roman Catholic church. The Bish doesn't get to tell Glynn Cardy where to get off unless Cardy puts does something that goes against Christianity, and believe it or not, worship of Mary has nothing to do with Christianity. For Anglicans, Mary was a married woman, not a divine virgin that you should pray to like she was some idol in a pagan temple. If idolators are offended by Cardy's billboard, all well and good.

Judge Holden said...

A rouge parish? What, are they commies?

Why are you guys all so awfully pc and prepared to be offended all of a sudden? You supposedly hate that sort of thing (look back at all the shrieking about Paul Henry getting his arse fired for being a racist twat).

In this case you can't even express why you think the billboard is offensive. It's pretty damn funny. Get over yourself.

The Veteran said...

Hmmmmm ..... Progressives' defending 'Progressives'. Strange that.

But PM and JH expressing mainstream Anglican sentiment ... I think not.

Andrei said...

Already two comments that demonstrate the divisive and harmful thing that this billboard is.

It does not bring "Peace and goodwill toward all men" at Christmas but brings out the worst in all.

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy upon us, Sinners"

MikeG said...

Are the Catholics now claiming that Mary wasn't even pregnant? Could someone please explain why the billboard is offensive.

Anonymous said...

Opium for the masses..

What good will it do them ???

XChequer said...

Methinks the vicar is channelling a certain Mr C Hitchens.

Good job too. After all Christmas, while nice for the kids, is a made up event (Nicean mythology) that just happened to coincide with nothing much at all at that time of year except some pagan summer thingy with some nice Norse mythology chucked in for a bit of variety.

It's not like Jesus was born on Dec 25 so whats the reason to get all het up?

Heine said...

I just wish the christians would stop polluting this perfectly nice pagan festival. Look at all the damage you lot are causing over a billboard.

Anonymous said...

Having listened to the offended Roman Catholic on the radio I think he should read his bible more so he may just get a glimpse of what is wrong with putting Mary on a pedestal. The RC's do much by way of ceremony that is warned against and seem to forget that its all about Jesus Christ and its only through him we are reconciled. Maybe its important enough to offend about but coming from the Anglicans in this parish its people in glasshouses throwing stones.

Judge Holden said...

Andrei seems to be running with the argument that because he gets upset about something it's therefore divisive and harmful. None of you pc namby-pambies can even explain why the billboard is supposedly offensive.

Andrei said...

Andrei seems to be running with the argument that because he gets upset about something it's therefore divisive and harmful

No I'm not - my reaction to it was "there those ridiculous Anglicans go again - and they wonder why their Church is dying - phtttt"

But it has aroused passions and upset people which is an undeniable fact whether you understand why this is so or not.

It has caused people to pour scorn upon one another which is not in keeping with the Christmas Spirit - no matter how you spin it.

simon said...

What this furore has done is put Christianity on the front pages of the newspapers and on all the talkback shows in the run up to Christmas. As one talkback host said last night "we would otherwise be talking about Santa Claus and reindeer". This is absolutely free publicity which St Matthew's manages to attract every year. I have no opinion on the content but note that many people are talking openly about the meaning of Christmas who would otherwise not.

Psycho Milt said...

But it has aroused passions and upset people which is an undeniable fact whether you understand why this is so or not.

As did the Muhammad cartoons. Yet I recall right-wingers at that time correctly placed responsibility for the consequences firmly on the people with the ridiculous ideas that were being lampooned, for not being willing to accept freedom of expression. Same applies here - the nutbar who wrecked their poster should be charged with the offence.

Andrei said...

Well PM if Glynn Cardy wants to be edgy and "start conversations" why didn't he put up a billboard of Mohammed in bed with his nine year old wife.

It would of course highlight the human rights issues of rape victims in Afghanistan etc

And it also would be an interesting exercise in exploring the limits of religious tolerance don't you think?

Anonymous said...

Maybe the catholics are getting mad because in the pic Mary looks suspiciously like a transy and it is highly unlikely that a transy would be needing to use a preg test.

TO be honest I think the vicar of St Matthews is a wannabe trying to make a 'religious' name for himself by putting up these stupid bill boards.

I do agree with PM's comments re Mary.

Until a few hundred years ago when one of the popes conceived that Mary worship and Mary visions would be a great money spinner for the church most people of christian persuasion accepted what the Bible says that Mary was a young woman who gave birth to Jesus and then went on to have other kids with her husband Joseph (their names are even recorded).

That she was chosen to give birth to Jesus was very cool for her but doesn't turn her into a object of worship.


Andrei said...

Load of cods Jimmy, again you demonstrate that the billboard is about rousing passions including those of anti-Catholicism.

But for your edification here is an ancient hymn, sung in the manner it was sung over 1700 years ago.

This hymn is still sung today all over the world - I don't know if Latin rite Catholics use it or not

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.

simon said...

Main topic of discussion on NewsTalkZB right now, Monday morning.

Blair said...

What Milt said. Mary wasn't immaculately conceived, didn't stay a virgin, wasn't sinless, and probably didn't ascend to heaven either. We protestants think Mary was a nice lady who was "blessed among women" and gave birth to Jesus, which was pretty freaking awesome for her, but there are lots of awesome and blessed people in the Bible. I'm all for respecting the beliefs of others, but there is nothing blasphemous, or even unbiblical about the billboard. Of course, knowing the Catholics, they will probably try and claim Mary never even menstruated, such was her purity. It's all a bit embarrassing. Can we focus on Jesus? 1700 years is a long time to get over Roman pagan Goddess worship and need a substitute.

frank black said...

which is not in keeping with the Christmas Spirit

The only spirit I like in my Christmas is the brandy in the pudding. Om-nom-nom.

If the defacing / destruction of the billboard is such a big deal, how it it that Arthur Skinner hasn't been arrested yet for damage to private property?

Anonymous said...

Any 'progressive', [churched or otherwise] that 'wants to engage in honest debate' is usually lying through their teeth. What they want is a platform from where they can push their barrow over the opposition. What is this witless placard saying? Mary is like someone whose night out has turned out with long term and unwanted consequences? That she can relate to the teens that find themselves up the duff after having their heels apart for 5 minutes?
More likely is that the pastoral celebs at that church find that they're irrelevant and have got to do some showstopper number to keep people talking about them. We are edgy and avant gard therefore we are.
Whether you worship her or not, she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus. In the schools I went to if you insulted someone's mother you had it coming. Jesus is a lot more forgiving than me and has suffered more abuse than I ever will but to publicly and repeatedly profane Mary to attract attention is to count on forebearance. Dumb. Witless. Tiresome


dad4justice said...

Satan gets real fucked off at CHRISTmas time!

Judge Holden said...

"In the schools I went to if you insulted someone's mother you had it coming."

Where's the insult? You're a moron George, I sincerely doubt you went to school.

All this outraged blubbing from the right-wing pc brigade. Toughen up girls. you can't even explain why you're offended. Is it because there was an image of Mary on a billboard? Imagine if someone had drawn a cartoon!!

dad4justice said...

You would know all about morons judge holden, you rusted out shit heap.

Psycho Milt said...

I too would be interested to hear what supposed "insult" this billboard offers.

dad4justice said...

PM your hatred of God is as bad as big bruv's. Are you the same sick person?

Psycho Milt said...

You know very well who I am D4J, as you troubled yourself to find out, and to pass on the info to fellow angry dim-bulb Angus.

And: nothing to say about how exactly this billboard constitutes an "insult," then? Quelle surprise.

The Veteran said...

This is NOT a theological debate .. put simply, I don't think it is overly smart for a Church to set out to denegrate the beliefs of others.

Real classy not.

I am not RC. But I can see why some of them might be offended.

That was the message behind my post and if some of you choose to read more into it that was intended ...
stiff cheese.

Judge Holden said...

"I can see why some of them might be offended."

How's that? You can't even explain how the billboard is offensive. Is it having Mary's image represented on a billboard? Blasphemy! Destroy it! Anybody taking their holidays in Islamabad this year?

Andrei said...

How's that? You can't even explain how the billboard is offensive.

You know full well why = you are just trying to be provocative.

People get upset when symbols that are important to them get trashed - like when people burn flags or disrupt the dawn parade and so forth

And just like you are doing now that flag burners feign surprise that their actions provoke a strong response.

Its a lefty technique refined over the years - frustrating to deal with but it is how they have trashed our culture by denigrating everything of value.

MikeG said...

Andrei - you seem to be avoiding the question as to what is offensive. My memory of the Christmas story is that Mary was troubled re her pregnancy - the modern day equivalent is what is portrayed on the billboard. What is wrong with trying to make Christmas seem relevant in today's society?

Andrei said...

Instead of trolling, MikeG, why don't you pick up a Bible and read the first Chapter of Luke - its all in there.

And if you want to know more you could on March 25th next year go to Church for the Feast of the Annunciation, which is the appropriate time is the to consider the Conception of Christ - not at Christmas which is about the Birth of Christ

Anonymous said...

The Marian cult of the Roman Catholics is fair game. But, St Matthew's cannot have intended this as it is hardly a bastion of Anglicanism. And their 'ecumenism' actually means sucking up to the papists. I say this as a sub-40, confirmed orthodox Anglican - a 39 articles, Book of Common Prayer, King James, God deserves the best, sort of chap - who strongly objects to women priests, the pedestrian and un-Anglican NZ prayer book, and other profanities and heterodoxies inflicted in the name of 'relevance'. And, if anyone cares, I'm not an Anglo-Catholic.

Psycho Milt said...

The Marian cult of the Roman Catholics is fair game. But, St Matthew's cannot have intended this...

Exactly. But a billboard that prompts passers-by to think about a biblical figure as a real person and to imagine how they'd feel if such events happened to them - now that is genuinely offensive to religious people used to idealising that biblical figure as a kind of divine being. The offence taken isn't Cardy's fault.

Judge Holden said...

"People get upset when symbols that are important to them get trashed..."

Being trashed how? Milt is right.

You guys are so prepared to be offended that you get offended by things that are objectively inoffensive. You also get offended by political correctness, which on your planet is an objection to anything somebody else finds offensive, such as racist rants by TV presenters. There's a beam in your eye.

Anonymous said...

The basis for the offence is simple.
Forget the bollocks about the pregnancy test (although Milt and Holden are probably prepared to argue they were around 2000 years ago) its the scared reaction on Mary's face that does it. Anyone familiar with Luke 1:26-38 knows that Mary WAS NOT troubled - she agreed and was fine with it - fiat.

I for one appreciate the stand taken and support given by the Veteran here - kudos to you Sir.

As Milt and Holden show quite forcefully, ignorance is a predominant affliction in this age.


Judge Holden said...

You find the expression on Mary's face is offensive! Solid case to destroy the billboard right there.

Sensitive wee creatures aren't you? Except when it comes to child abuse by priests, then you're all meh.

"Anyone familiar with Luke 1:26-38 knows that Mary WAS NOT troubled - she agreed and was fine with it - fiat."

Why are you guys so weird? It's a fairy tale, not a blow by blow history recounted by eye witnesses.

dad4justice said...

Sorry PM I did not know big bruv and judge holden are both called Graeme Taylor.

I am so sorry for my mistake.

Mr Taylor go walk your dog.

Heine said...

All this kerfuffle over a fairytale.

jesus this and god that. The sooner you lot realise there is no basis for any of this the better.

dad4justice said...

Oh yeah heine you wimpster go crawl back up big bruv's arse you creep.