Thursday, September 9, 2010

FREEDOM IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN ABSOLUTE

In exercising those freedoms one is required to act responsibly. Where that freedom is abused then condemnation follows just as surely as night follows day.

And so it is that the intention of American Pastor Terry Jones to burn 200 copies of the Quran on the anniversary of 9/11 can be rightly condemned.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/florida-pastor-says-koran-burning-still-on/

All religions (like political parties) have their rogue elements. Jones qualifies as such because his action gives aid and comfort to radical Islam and will undoubtedly put the lives of western soldiers and civilians further at risk.

Just as during WW2 when members of the British Union of Fascists were
interned under Regulation 18B as posing a danger to the war effort so similar legislation should be enacted to sideline the likes of Pastor Jones (and those 'Western' Muslim Clerics who equally abuse 'freedom' by calling for Jihad against the infidel majority in their respective countries).

I end where I started. Freedom is not and never has been absolute.

73 comments:

Falafulu Fisi said...

Veteran said...
Just as during WW2 when members of the British Union of Fascists were interned under Regulation 18B as posing a danger to the war effort so similar legislation should be enacted to sideline the likes of Pastor Jones

Veteran, that's an irrelevant example. Leftist Western Citizens since WW2 have been making the West’s weak by cheerleading for Muslims. They organize protests (in massive numbers) against Western governments' actions only, because you don't see them protests against other governments, such as Russia invading Georgia.

There is no other way to deal with hostilities to the West’s but confronting those who want to destroy the West’s (i.e., the Muslims & Islamic fanatics). Pandering to them and their leftist sympathizers from the West’s' will only make them organized themselves & mobilizes against Western interests. They should be bombed if it needs to achieve certain goals. Fuck international law. It should be disregard when the West’s interests are being threaten. Good example? Israel bombed Saddam's nuclear research facilities in 1980s. Should the Israelis have asked for permission from the UN to do that? Fuck no. During the first gulf war, the Americans thanked the Israelis (behind the scene) for their brave effort in taking Saddam's nuclear program out of action 10 years earlier.

This is the only type of actions that hostile nations/people to the West’s understand. They understand retaliation with force in a disproportionate manner. You shoot me with a rifle; I'll drop a tomahawk missile on you. You explode bombs in our cities, I'll invade you. If you try to smuggle some WMD into our cities, I'll nuke you out of existence.

Western leaders had been hijacked by pacifists & leftists since WW2, therefore capitulating to Muslims/Islamic fanatics. One day, Western nations will wake up and realized that Muslims had been all over them abated by leftists who live in the West’s. Even Western politicians are sympathizers to Muslims.

Strong retaliations are needed. Western leaders must have strong guts to do what is right. In fact I support what American Pastor Terry Jones is doing, and that's real freedom Veteran.

Besides, Muslims should care less about burning 200 copies of the Quran, rather they should care more about the plight of their fellow Muslims who’re caught up in the natural disasters in Pakistan. There are 20 millions (approximately) who are in dire straits at the moment over there in Pakistan that Muslims should focus more on helping them.

Inventory2 said...

Agree wholeheartedly Veteran, and have just added a paragraph from your post to my thought on this lunacy.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/09/burning-koran.html

JC said...

For both the Muslim Centre in NY and this Dove Church, the best treament is to proclaim what they are:

The Muslim Centre will rely on Islamist money from Saudi Arabia and Iran.. and the Dove Church is a supporter of the dreadful Westboro Church and its leader Fred Phelps. Thats the outfit that defiles funerals of military personal.

JC

JC said...

Then again, perhaps we should heed the wise words of President Obama, with just one small edit from Ann Coulter:

"Let me be clear: As a citizen, and as president, I believe that members of the Dove World Outreach Center have the same right to freedom of speech and religion as anyone else in this country."

Thats the trouble with being tone deaf on the matter of "rights".. sooner or later someone is going to hold you to them.

JC

Anonymous said...

Waste of good toilet paper, doesn't he have any spare bibles?
It is an idiotic act by someone whose faith is only a little less contemptable than islam.

Psycho Milt said...

Thats the trouble with being tone deaf on the matter of "rights"

Tone deaf alright, if you equate building a community centre with holding a book-burning. They both have the right to go ahead, but the moral difference between them is clear enough.

Redbaiter said...

Since when has the threat of danger to troops governed the US internal government policies? They are there to defend the American Constitution, not bend over for the Taliban.

More politically correct cowardice (that is constantly the real source of danger to our troops), and coming from those who should know a hell of a lot better.

There may be many reasons for dissuading the Reverend from his actions but threats from terrorists should not ever be one of them.

James said...

And theres the beginning of slippery slope towards the very totalitarianism you may claim to oppose.

Its the same bullshit argument used by well meaning simpletons to justify fascistic violations of free speech and free expression where displays and statements regarding Nazis are concerned.

You don't protect freedom by repressing it...you don't uphold values by undermining them.

"We had to destroy freedom to save it".....oh please.

Jones has every right as an American under the constitution to burn anything he owns on his legally owned property as long as he doesn't violate the equal rights of anyone else in the process.And hes not...burning Korans,or Bibles for that matter do nothing of the sort.


Redbaiter...well said!

"Oooohh, the Taliban may get cross and shoot extra bullets at us! :-o

What a puss out gutless piss poor fucken cop out stance to take...

A REAL response is to drop a shitload of napalm on the stone age savages at the same time Jones is burning his books and say "Thats for nothing..now start something!"

matt b said...

Disagree, Veteran. Yes freedom is not absolute, but it necessarily includes the right to offend. The end point of excluding the right to offend from freedom is to take away the freedom to express any opinion - since somebody will always find offence in any opinion.

Freedom is usefully limited in some ways. Freedom to incite riots is not usually granted - but precisely because those riots impinge on the freedoms of others.

Taking away freedom to express disgust with a particular religion doesn't take away the disgust. It simply shifts expression to other forms. Rather a Quran be burned than a mosque.

James said...

"Disagree, Veteran. Yes freedom is not absolute, but it necessarily includes the right to offend. The end point of excluding the right to offend from freedom is to take away the freedom to express any opinion - since somebody will always find offence in any opinion."

Yes....as soon as you start denying someone the right to speak freely regarding one issue you open the flood gates to having anyone claim the right to ban someone from spaeking freely on another issue...and its all downhill for freedom from there.Thats the price we pay for our freedoms...having to respect and protect those freedoms for everyone else....especially those who we disagree with.

"I disagree with what you do but I'll defend to the death your right to do it"

Ring any bells Veteran?

"Freedom is usefully limited in some ways. Freedom to incite riots is not usually granted - but precisely because those riots impinge on the freedoms of others."

Correct.Its our individual rights thats set the limits on our freedom to act.My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins..until that time I'll swing away as much as I like!

"Taking away freedom to express disgust with a particular religion doesn't take away the disgust. It simply shifts expression to other forms. Rather a Quran be burned than a mosque."

Exactly.

James said...

Great post here re this issue

http://dougreich.blogspot.com/2010/09/genpetraeus-betrays-first-amendment.html

Quote: "When a renowned Muslim cleric calls for the beheading of a Dutch politician, we hear nothing from Western leaders. However, when some reverend in Podunk, USA decides to burn some Quran's on his lawn, we get fiery condemnations from General Petraeus, the State Department, and the White House.


"Images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan - and around the world - to inflame public opinion and incite violence," Petraeus said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to hurt our reputation among members of the Taliban, Iran's Revolutionary Guard, or Hamas..."


Petraeus and the White house need to shut the fuck up and do their damm jobs...which is protecting Americans and their rights.

The Veteran said...

Somewhat convoluted thinking by Redbaiter and others.

Pointing out the consequences likely to follow from the actions of Pastor Jones has nothing to do with "politically correct cowardice" .... or are you also calling General David Petraeus a politically correct coward?

And for those who want to argue the toss as some sort of intellectual exercise about the true meaning of freedom well, I couldn't give a flying f**k what you think.

My concern is for the troops on the ground (and they include my son).

I put you in the same basket as those New Zealanders who donated medical supplies to the NVA and VC in 'my' war.

matt b said...

I can understand the response from Petraeus and Veteran - pissing off the enemy does make your job harder if you've decided to put yourself in harm's way and serve.

But freedom and liberty are not to be sacrificed in the interests of keeping soldiers safer. Nor is it sacrificed for the special interests of any minority. That is simply degrading a nation and giving those soldiers less that is worth defending. How insulting.

Veteran, I would be surprised if many soldiers thought taking away the right of the citizens in their countries to say what they think was a good idea, even if that made them a little safer. I could be wrong.

James said...

My concern is for the troops on the ground (and they include my son).

Who choose to go to defend the very values you are now backsliding on...? How is doing that backing him up?

"I put you in the same basket as those New Zealanders who donated medical supplies to the NVA and VC in 'my' war."

Why did you bother? You obviously had more in common with the NVA as far as individual rights and peoples freedoms are concerned.

Petraeus's job is to protect the very rights of people like Jones to do what he's doing from scum like the Taliban who would violate them.....if he can't do that job he should hand over to someone who dooes know what the fights really all about....and it ain't cowtowing to fear.

Redbaiter said...

"I put you in the same basket as those New Zealanders who donated medical supplies to the NVA and VC in 'my' war."

That's the one you lost because you let the left wing beat you at home rather than the Vietcong in battle. The same left wing who have undermined our troops in every war. The same left wing who today hate the Constitution even more than they did back then. The same left wing who are today suggesting that government should stop the Koran burning but were cheering for the Mosque to be built at ground Zero because it was a freedom of religion issue and therefore protected under the Constitution.

Petreaus is IMHO utterly wrong with his hearts and minds approach and its one that has cost too many soldier's lives. We needed to bomb the shit out of Iraq and we need to do it twice as well in Afghanistan. These savages respect nothing but brute force, and kow towing to them shows a confusion of mind that is no help in any battle. You want to encourage them to more violence then go ahead. If any lives are lost among our own troops its down to appeasers like you.

Murray said...

I'm in tow minds about this. Tell you what you get a photo of yourself in Terahan holding up a bible and I'll make my mind up.

Intollerance breeds intollerance.

An anti-Islamist backlash did not occur in a vacuum.

The Veteran said...

Hmmmmmmm some quite shallow thinking by those who prefer rhetoric over substance.

Lyndon Johnston once famously said "grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow" ... and they bombed the shitter out of North Vietnam and who won?

Winning wars requires an asymetric approach. As foreigners in a foreign country (for that's what we are) a multifaceted approach is the only answer. The war can never be won by guns alone. At the end of the day the Afghani people will make the choice and that choice is not made any easier by the stupid actions of Pastor Jones ... and that is the point of the post.

Perhaps the best example of how to win a war (and one of the few wars we can really say we won with bells on) was the Malayan Emergency 1948-1960. It is viewed by miluitary historians as a textbook operation and there would have been a very different outcome if the British had not determined very early on that winning the hearts and minds was the key to success.

The more astute among you will know that already.

Others choose to remain pig ignorant.

James said...

Could have sworn that Redbaiter swore never to post again on this blog not to long ago.

Typical socialist liar, can't trust old Russell.

KG said...

"but were cheering for the Mosque to be built at ground Zero because it was a freedom of religion issue.."

No no Redbaiter--didn't you read PMs comment?
It's merely a "community centre".

Anonymous said...

James said

'Oooohh, the Taliban may get cross and shoot extra bullets at us! :-o

What a puss out gutless piss poor fucken cop out stance to take...'"

I take it you're in Afghanistan at the moment in a combat role James? No? What a dick (not as bad as KG, but still a cock).

Judge Holden

Psycho Milt said...

No no Redbaiter--didn't you read PMs comment?
It's merely a "community centre".


That seems a better term for it than "mosque," which is a straightforward propaganda lie. But yes, by all means ask him "didn't you read PM's comment," seeing as it contradicts his usual nutbar wank about what "the left" think.

James said...

"James said...

Could have sworn that Redbaiter swore never to post again on this blog not to long ago.

Typical socialist liar, can't trust old Russel"

Whoever this "James" is it ain't me....I posted as the first James.Someone playing silly buggers?

James (1st 1) said...

"I take it you're in Afghanistan at the moment in a combat role James? No? What a dick (not as bad as KG, but still a cock).

Judge Holden"

I don't need to Judge as thats what we have soldiers FOR...thats their JOB.

If it came to it I would do my bit if required...have no worries.

The Veteran said...

James ... it matters not a fig to me whether you are the James 3.17 or the James 3.43.

Stupid posts both.

Back to your toy guns.

Real ones matter and you don't.

James (1st 1) said...

And actually Judge Holden I did try to go to Afghanistan to help the boys. I offered my services as a hairdresser and as a professional masseuse, those boys would need a good rub down after a day on patrol but unfortunately they declined because I couldnt get a security clearance. So there.

Redbaiter said...

Whoever this "James" is it ain't me....I posted as the first James.Someone playing silly buggers?

MNIJ from Kiwiblog I'd guess. A coward and liar without a skerrick of decency leaving fake messages all over the net.

He is a firm reminder of what you're up against with the left, people who have no moral restraint and who will do anything in the name of their perverted stinking mission if they think they can get away with it.

Anonymous said...

"leaving fake messages all over the net."

Oh and I guess someone left a fake message from you saying that you were forever leaving this blog and would never post here again?

Don't you remember Russell, you swore never to post here again, yet you seem to be coming back here with monotonous regularity. Whats the matter KG's love affair with the English Defence League putting you off Crusader Rabid?

matt b said...

Veteran I'm sad to see you stoop to cliche such as "rhetoric over substance".

The substance of your argument is that the hearts and minds of our opponents are more likely to be won if the governments of nations at war suspend the rights of their citizens to express their opinions on things. In the United States, that means violating the Constitution - the very document and ideals the military is charged with defending!

Quite apart from being directly contrary to the ideals I suspect people of all nations in their respective in their respective militaries are fighting for, it is simply lowering our standards to those of the opponent on the theory that this makes us more likely to win.

This is not merely rhetoric. Governments which respect the rights of its citizens and doesn't suspend those rights without very good reason is an important part of knowing whose side of the battle you'd rather be on. It is an essential distinction between ours and the former governments of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Given how much blood has been spilled over the years by our servicemen and women defending our freedoms, I am genuinely sad to see how eager you are to suspend them any time our soldiers go to war. I doubt many of them would agree with you.

Your strategy can be summarised as cheapening the ideals our militaries fight for in the hope that assuages the enemy. Sad to see you let such important ideals go because a nutter burned some books.

Anonymous said...

"I offered my services as a hairdresser and as a professional masseuse, those boys would need a good rub down after a day on patrol but unfortunately they declined because I couldnt get a security clearance. So there."

Riiiight whatever. Talk is cheap Jimbo. I'm sure that if it hadn't been for that unfortunate and tragic failure to get a security clearance you would have posted a video on youTube just before your departure for Kabul of you burning the quran just to prove that you sure as hell ain't no pussy. What a wanker.

Judge Holden

James (Original) said...

""I offered my services as a hairdresser and as a professional masseuse, those boys would need a good rub down after a day on patrol but unfortunately they declined because I couldnt get a security clearance. So there."

And again....thats not me.Someones thinks they are funny and trying to disrupt the thread.

As for you Veteran...take your guns and shoot yourself...you may as well as you are no use to anyone wanting to preserve their freedom while you advocate letting it be whittled away so as not to offend terrorists.

Do you need a lie down and a cry?

Anonymous said...

That guy pretending to be you is way funnier and cleverer than you are James.

"If it came to it I would do my bit if required...have no worries."

As I said, talk is cheap. My comments about you being a wanker stand.

Judge Holden

Anonymous said...

This what happens when those who believe in spooks are unleashed!

Cadwallader

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

'"I offered my services as a hairdresser and as a professional masseuse, those boys would need a good rub down after a day on patrol but unfortunately they declined because I couldnt get a security clearance. So there."'

Don't worry duckie! You'll have no trouble getting a job with the parliamentary Labour Party.

James (Original) said...

Right Judge...and you are Rambo on his day off are you?

Cock..

The Realist said...

The Jews were interned by Germany for the same reason as the British Fascists were.
What pisses me off, is the childish insanity of the reaction to the silly bugger's plan. If the Moslems decided to burn 200 copies of the Bible, the Christians might be pissed off, but would simply print some more.

The Veteran said...

Matt B ... In case you hadn't noticed we are fighting a war in Afghanistan and in a war situation it has always been the case that restrictions have been placed on so called rights.

The problem here simply is that if the book burning had gone ahead it would have gifted radical Islam a very powerful recruiting tool. Would have given the easily brainwashed some sort of moral justification (in their minds) for the unleashing of further terrorist activities against the West.

In short, by supporting the right of Pastor Jones to do his thing you are actively encouraging terriorism.

This isn't some moot to be debated and then walked away from forgotten. People (soldiers and civilians alike) will die because of it.

p.s. I see now it is reported that the Pastor claims he has reached some sort of agreement with a New York Muslim Cleric to hold off the burning in return for the scrapping of the building of the Islamic Cutural Centre (read Mosque) close to Ground Zero.

If that is right then that might be a good outcome with both sides recognising the need to pull back.

WAKE UP said...

RULE 1: DON’T fly planes into building in the pursuit of 72 virgins.

The other stuff can wait.

WAKE UP said...

"For nine years now, some experts have told us, terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. Today these experts tell us, that Koran burning in Florida will fuel terrorism. Could someone please explain to me how could Koran burning affect terrorism, if there is no connection between terrorism and Islam? "
(from Atlas Shrugs website)

WAKE UP said...

"...or are you also calling General David Petraeus a politically correct coward?"

At some point (which is becoming increasingly clearly denoted), inaction and self-indulgent chardonnay soliloquising actually become cowardly, treasonable and collaborative with the enemy.

And we're starting to get an inkling of why Obama chose Petraeus.

Time to suit up, people.

James said...

"In short, by supporting the right of Pastor Jones to do his thing you are actively encouraging terriorism."

Then we have already lost and the terrorists have won.Tell your son to come home asap Vet...hes wasting his time over there thinking he was defending something worth the effort.

So the values that make the West and especially the US great and good are to be flushed away to appease evil with indecent haste are they...?

I hope you have the good grace not to show your face at any ANZAC day parades from now on Vet...

James said...

"The problem here simply is that if the book burning had gone ahead it would have gifted radical Islam a very powerful recruiting tool. Would have given the easily brainwashed some sort of moral justification (in their minds) for the unleashing of further terrorist activities against the West."

Its people like you selling out by making claims like this that is the greatest recruiting tool for terrorists...you have just inspired them with the knowledge that the West will fold to them given enough pressure...

Thanks a bunch you backsliding surrender monkey.

Anonymous said...

I hope you have the good grace not to show your face at any ANZAC day parades from now on Vet

Get lost you vile man - little keyboard warrior.

I hope YOU don't show your face at any ANZAC parade because you are the type of extremist NAZI nutter we fought to have freedom from. Lunatic.

James said...

"Get lost you vile man - little keyboard warrior."

from an anon pussy....how rich.


"I hope YOU don't show your face at any ANZAC parade because you are the type of extremist NAZI nutter we fought to have freedom from. Lunatic."

Right...Im the Nazi for standing up for the values that the Nazis tried to destroy....nice fail there dickwad.

Fuck off and learn some hstory nancy..

Anonymous said...

Yeah learn some history. The Nazis never preached total war and burnt books like Jimbo!

When are you volunteering to go to Afghanistan hero?

Judge Holden

FAIRFACTS MEDIA said...

The reactions by many muslims and the world leaders have proven the pastor right in more ways than one.
The violent reaction at some protests, where there have been deaths, plus the further threats of terror, prove the pastor right in believing Islam is a violent religion linked to terror.
Western leaders and generals fearing violence against troops, terror attacks, etc, confirms that they too believe that islam is a religion of intolerance, death and destruction.
We hear talk that we should respect religion. But doesn't respect have to be earned? Can we respect a religion that kills so many in its name and whose followers threaten death and mayhem should we ever upset the sensibilities of its followers.

James said...

"Yeah learn some history. The Nazis never preached total war and burnt books like Jimbo!"

Where have I done that? I am standing up for his RIGHT to do it...not WHAT hes doing...big difference.Its called freedom Judge...look it up.

"I disagree with what you do but I defend to the death your right to do it"...its the basic premise of the US constitution

Get it numpty?

"When are you volunteering to go to Afghanistan hero?"

Thats what soldiers are for....to fight,and possibly die,to defend our freedom.Its what they choose to do.I assume you won't be going as freedom is not something you value...?

Psycho Milt said...

But doesn't respect have to be earned?

No, it doesn't. It's something you owe other people until they provide a reason why you shouldn't respect them. If you walk around treating everyone you meet as a contemptible asshole until they do something to earn your respect, you're going to take a lot of well-deserved beatings.

In this case, you obviously think Muslims don't deserve your respect because some of them are violent criminals - which makes as much sense as hating white people because "they" stole all your Grandma's money and spent it on luxury birthday parties in Fiji.

Anonymous said...

"A REAL response is to drop a shitload of napalm on the stone age savages..."

Total war!!!! Yeah!!! Go Jimbo!

And you're all over this book burning like a rash, despite the fact that it compromises the safety of combat soldiers, whom you're only too happy to endanger, but a little to frightened to actually join. You're a real freedom hero.

Judge Holden

James said...

"A REAL response is to drop a shitload of napalm on the stone age savages..."

Total war!!!! Yeah!!! Go Jimbo!,


We are already at war dick.They started this one 9 years ago today and its our right to finish it.They would take any chance to kill us all so fairs fair..

"And you're all over this book burning like a rash, despite the fact that it compromises the safety of combat soldiers, whom you're only too happy to endanger, but a little to frightened to actually join. You're a real freedom hero."

Whats the point of the soldiers if they aren't upholding our freedom....? What are they bothering for then? Come on Judge sellout..answer that.

Freedom is bought at the price of men with guns being willing to defend it...and pay with their lives if need be.Its sad but sometimes nesessary unfortunatly.

Im not a soldier so why do I need to go? There are plenty there already, thats what the signed up for to do.If war comes here I'm perfectly ready to fight for my values...I doubt you can say the same you chicken shit....you would probably turn traitor quick smart.

I imagine you on your kness praying to Mecca on the first day..

matt b said...

Veteran

NO.

I am not supporting terrorism. Nor do I think the pastor's book burning is a smart idea. Nor do I deny there wil be consequences. I am saying due process matters, and ad hoc exceptions to something as important as the right to express a (nutty) view matters.

There is infinitely more danger to many more people in allowing governments to suppress their own citizens than radicals can ever achieve in far off countries.

Your terrorism charge is childish and wrong. I am defending free speech, not the Pastor per se.

James said...

Well said Matt.I agree totally.

Get it yet Judge...?

The Veteran said...

I thank the many who have attempted to argue their point of view constructively (especially Matt B).

Clearly he and I disagree but that's life.

But there have been some really quite stupid and bozo type comments as well.

They can be disregarded as the mouthings of those who have no concept of things military (and probably reached the dissy heights of LCpl in the School Cadets before being demoted for bullying).

Bomb 'them' back to the stone age -NOT.

Afghanistan is a classic example of an asymmetric war situation (war between two unequal sides in a conventional sense and where the paradigm changes). There, winning the hearts and minds of the local populace is crucial to eventual success (however you want to define it) and I defy the rambos among you to point to any credible person with an ounce of military experience who would argue otherwise.

And that is why the book burning by some 'cracker' nutter should and must be condemned. It gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

Can I suggest that if the now TV celeb (in his own mind at least) and his ragtag mob of mostly tattood followers determine to go ahead then they should relocate to the Kabul Market for the event - that would test their resolve.

James said...

:And that is why the book burning by some 'cracker' nutter should and must be condemned. It gives aid and comfort to the enemy."

Sure...condem the action,it is silly...but respect the right of the person to do it...thats whats really at stake in this conflict.Give that up and its all over...the Taliban win.

The only one giving aid and comfort to the enemy is you Veteran....by surrendering the principle to those who would destroy us...and will keep trying to destroy us regardless of a book burning or whatever.

What use are soldiers with no cause to fight for? Tell me...what?

James said...

My "bomb them back to the stone age" commment was aimed at the Taliban,period...not Afgans in general...that should have been obvious.

If our troops aren't doing just that they aren't doing the job we require of them....which is kill those who would kill us.

The Veteran said...

James - you just don't get it at all young man .... the proposed book burning doesn't happen in a vacumn. There are consequences, serious consequences, likely to ensue.

And recognising those consequences isn't giving into terriorism.

But for you it's bugger the consequences and if a few more coalition soldiers are killed as a result then what the fuck, they volunteered, they're expendible.

Yes, soldiers are there to fight ... for arseholes like you and your immature rantings make their job harder.

But as I said at the start - you just don't understand and probably never will.

Glad I never had you under my command. In my exoperience the 'rambo' types made piss poor soldiers.

James said...

Answer the question Veteran...what are our troops doing there if not fighting for a principled cause....which is to protect our freedom.

Whats the point of the whole business if you cave in and surrender that which you are fighting for in the first place?

Jones is a dick no question...but a dick with rights.And the cost of having a free society is defending the likes of Jones to use his rights to be a dick.His actions violate no-ones rights so they are no business of the states or anyone else to prevent with force.

Why do YOU think the west is fighting the Taliban?WHY is your son there? Please explain.

James said...

"James - you just don't get it at all young man .... the proposed book burning doesn't happen in a vacumn. There are consequences, serious consequences, likely to ensue."

What about the consequences for freedom and individual rights by restricting them to avoid "giving offence"?That opens the floodgates to anyone wanting to ban speech or actions that "offend" someone...and because offense is subjective that means ANY speech or action is threatened.

Those the consequences you want?

"And recognising those consequences isn't giving into terriorism."

No....but repressing freedom sure doesn't help defeat it...quite the reverse...it encourages it.

You know what really would have been great?If the Muslims living in the US who understood what the country was based on and stood for said to Jones "We hate what you plan to do...but we understand and respect your right to do it"...now that would have been truly inspiring and a smack in the eye of scum like the Taliban.

"But for you it's bugger the consequences and if a few more coalition soldiers are killed as a result then what the fuck, they volunteered, they're expendible."

So the burning of a few Korans in the US by a fringe nutter puts our troops in greater danger than they already are? I don't think so....the Taliban need no more incentive then they already possess to want to kill so its a red herring argumant.

The Veteran said...

Well James ... fortunately greater minds than you and I have determined (and rightly so) that the Quran burning does nothing to help us win over the hearts and minds of Afghani Muslims.

I not that in an earlier post you said that your 'bomb them back to the stone age' comment was directed at the Talaban and not the Afghani people.

Sorry to rain on your parade but the Talaban and Afghani are quite indistinguishable.

It is not as if the Talaban have a big T on their turbans and the others a big A?

And still you seem incapable of grasping the concept of asymmetric warefare and the crutial part that WHAM has in the process.

Real soldiers do.

nuff said. Last Post.

Anonymous said...

I love when non religious people post about relgious matters.

Anonymous said...

James is fervently religious. He worships at the altar or Rand. Odd thing is that for someone whose first principle is the non-inititiation of force he sure loves getting other people out there killing each other. Would you like to nuke Iran James?

It's called FREEDOM people!

Judge Holden

James said...

Heh, I'm not religous I'm gay and according to the bible if I was to sink my 4 inch shank into the loving embrance of my soon to be husbands anus I would go to hell.

And my name is actually Russell and I live in Tauranga.

ZenTiger said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ZenTiger said...

So when do we arrest Trey Parker and co, and lock them up until after we move out of Afghanistan on the off chance they offend some less moderate Muslims?

And what if Jay Leno makes a wise crack that sets them off? Let's keep him off air, or at least check every script prior to screening.

And what if Hollywood's A-list don't run with an anti-war protest fast enough to please Taleban? That could send the wrong signal.

And maybe we shouldn't interfere in local Iranian judicial issues and let the stoning of that adulterous women go ahead for fear we overstep our mark?

Most of all, we need to shut down the ENTIRE USA Media, because had they not broadcast the story of the Koran burning plans, we could breathe a sigh of relief that freedom is safe.

Just as during WW2 when members of the British Union of Fascists were interned under Regulation 18B as posing a danger to the war effort

Yep, and if we stay in a state of war for the next 100 years, all of my above suggestions become even more reasonable.

On the other hand, the fact that this book burning pastor has brought condemnation upon himself from a huge swathe of Americans from the President down, plus the condemnation of many Westerners around the world will send a strong signal to the Taleban that not all people are that stupid or intolerant.

And I'm sure being the reasonable people you wish them to be, they will take that into account.

Because if they don't take that into account, I fear that no amount of capitulation will suffice. And with our most potent peacekeeping capability thus disarmed, where would that leave us?

ZenTiger said...

Do I need to add that whilst I never agree with James, I can see on this occasion, on the topic of freedom, he clearly agrees with me :-)

Another tangent to take this discussion in is the changing of the law to make the burning of a flag or religious symbol illegal. I think it was in 2006 an amendment was put forward to "protect" the American flag in this way, but it didn't get the vote. If it had, then it still wouldn't have "protected" the Koran but it would probably have focused the debate in getting calls for it "just like the flag".

Given that neither are so protected, I think that leaves us accepting the principles of freedom include putting up with nutters, and an expectation Muslims and others can make a loud but peaceful protest. Because violence and threats in response should not be tolerated, excused or shied away from.

James (original) said...

Well said Zen....you nailed it.

And again the fake "James"posts as me.


My last comment was the one at 2:17 PM on the 11th.

"James is fervently religious. He worships at the altar or Rand. Odd thing is that for someone whose first principle is the non-inititiation of force he sure loves getting other people out there killing each other. Would you like to nuke Iran James?"

Self defensive action against the initionation of force is perfectly justified and moral Judge...thats the moral mandate the West has to take on the Taliban et el who wish to attack us.I don't think the invasion of Iraq was justified based on what we know but sorting out Afganistan?.....right on.

How are your knees Judge....still flexible enough to get down on to face Mecca 5 times a day?

Anonymous said...

Because violence and threats in response should not be tolerated, excused or shied away from.

That is alright for you to say as I don't you have family involved.

In Auckland a family member works in the US Consulate building. Usually they fly the flag outside. They took their flag down on 11/9 as they were expecting a protest. This is nothing to do with appeasement or cowardice, or free speech. It it because the flag is a lightning rod for idiots who can get into our building without too much trouble.

You and James are naive fools. Veteran has it right.

Anonymous said...

I mean "you don't have family involved".

ZenTiger said...

@anon

So anon, how pre-emptive are you going to get to "ensure the safety" of our troops overseas?

This Pastor pre-announced his action, so you could arrest him and lock him up. Perhaps send him to Gitmo now that there's so much room?

And would it be much safer in Afghanistan for this? Are the Taleban just playing nicely at the moment until they become suitably outraged? Were they using rubber bullets until now?

If the condemnation from Obama and others doesn't offer a counter balancing message, then I'd suggest this is a lost cause.

Interestingly, I think Veteren's solution would make things even worse (and if the point is to maximise the safety of the troops, then think about what Veteren is suggesting:

Just as during WW2 ..legislation should be enacted to sideline the likes of those 'Western' Muslim Clerics who call for Jihad against the infidel majority in their respective countries).

Can you imagine how the extremists will play upon the so-called freedom of speech and religion resulting in the baseless persecution of clerics who are rounded up and carted off for speaking their mind??

Because you can be sure the extremists take the worst possible view of locking up and disrespecting the local Inman.

Surely, if Veteren's motivation is to protect the troops, he can see this suggestion would do the reverse.

I think he suggested it because it provides "balance" to locking up our own nutters, but we would quickly be reminded the dangers of locking up and mistreating Muslim Clerics.

Or an I still being naive?

ZenTiger said...

PS: I still think the only viable solution to this issue would be to change the law to make willful destruction or desecration of flags and specific religious icons illegal, and it would have to be wide ranging - not simply protecting the Koran and the US Flag.

And that solution brings new problems.

Meanwhile, the Pastor cancelled his plans to burn the Koran (looks like the concept of asking nicely still works with some people) but a UK based Muslim wants to burn the US Flag and is asking for it to be done around the world.

So Veteran - do we step in now and lock those people up?

Anonymous said...

the swastica is a ancient Indian symbol, should that be protected?

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Anon, actually is is a Hindu symbol and it is quite different from the emblem of Nazi Germany. Look closely and see if you can spot the obvious difference.

James (original) said...

.....and then we will get to the situation of making it illegal to wear certain clothing lines as happened in Germany when neo-nazis,after having their usual regalia outlawed, started wearing certain lines products causing officals to ban police officers et el from wearing those same lines.

Thats how rediculous and wrong things get when you start pissing on freedom of speech and action in the vain attempt to deter those who would attack them in the first place.

Anon: "In Auckland a family member works in the US Consulate building. Usually they fly the flag outside. They took their flag down on 11/9 as they were expecting a protest. This is nothing to do with appeasement or cowardice, or free speech. It it because the flag is a lightning rod for idiots who can get into our building without too much trouble."

That is appeasment and its shameful.If the building is that insecure they need to find another one that isn't as most office/industrial buildings in Auckland are very secure and would require some effort to enter...I know,till recently it was my job to check on that very thing.And what...the US consulate doesn't have some onsite security?I find that hard to believe.At Coca Cola in Auckland extra security is in place just before and after 9/11 every year since the attack as they consider themselves a potential target of nutters so I doubt the US consulute is any less protected.I know the Chinese embassy has private security check and attend alarm activations and incidents there so Im calling BS on your claim.

History doesn't look kindly on appeasers of evil....compare the cudos Churchill got as opposed to the scorn heaped upon Chamberlin.The latters pathetic attidude to Hitlers blatant aggression in Europe enabled that monster to start a war that killed millions and devestated great parts of the world.

Least we forget...

WAKE UP said...

The Muslim world has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Islamic terrorism at all. We are quick to condemn our own extremists such as the Koran-burning pastor if we wish (that's democracy), but Muslims worldwide, though pathologically primed to riot over the printed page, have not yet mounted a single protest on any discernible scale against Islamic terrorist killing of innocent human beings, including the events of 9/11, a disconnect that Muslim leaders such as Imam Rauf have also failed to explain satisfactorily - because they CAN'T.