Thursday, February 25, 2010

Amazing guy


"The son of one of Hamas’s founding members was a spy in the service of Israel for more than a decade, helping prevent dozens of Islamist suicide bombers from finding their targets, it emerged today."
You can see video of his conversion to Christianity here. He was at one point president of the Hamas Youth movement. The turning point was seeing a phrase in the bible to "Love your enemy".
Needless to say he has a death sentence.
He is now living in California.

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20 comments:

Psycho Milt said...

Every people has its Quislings.

Peter said...

Every people has its Quislings.

Very cynical. Do you not think it is even a little bit amazing that somebody could emerge from such a cesspit of hate and not only reject it but work against it. Needless to say, at great risk to himself.

"So many people owe him their life and don't even know it. The amazing thing is that none of his actions were done for money. He did things he believed in. He wanted to save lives." You call that the action of a quisling?

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

How churlish, Milt.

Psycho Milt said...

I always find it a little bit amazing when people are willing to turn traitor and betray their own people. This guy isn't someone who's bravely stood up against the use of terrorism by his own side, he's bravely (no doubt about that) helped the occupiers and colonisers of his country with their project and almost certainly assisted them with the murder of his fellow citizens. Such people often get an early, ugly and unmourned death.

Peter said...

Some causes are evil enough that betraying them is justified. The German group who tried to assasinate Hitler weren't traitors.

Psycho Milt said...

Attempting to assassinate Hitler didn't make them traitors, no. However, people who helped the Germans occupy and colonise their own countries were traitors, weren't they? It's the origin of the term "Quisling," after all.

This guy not only fits the description perfectly, he declares himself willing to put on the uniform of the occupier and fight his own people. If there's a definition of "traitor" or "Quisling" that doesn't cover that, I'd be interested to hear it.

KG said...

"I always find it a little bit amazing when people are willing to turn traitor and betray their own people."

A little bit amazed, are you....perhaps he found the bombing of school buses and strapping bombs on to toddlers a little bit disgusting.

"and almost certainly assisted them with the murder of his fellow citizens."
That'd be those fine upstanding bombing, throat-slitting, kiddie killing citizens eh?
It's obvious who you save your admiration for Milt and so, so illustrative of the filth you're in bed with ideologically.
I'd spit- but it would be a waste of good fluid.

Peter said...

Who is his own people? Does he even see himself as having a country in the sense we would understand it? Even if the answer is yes, Hamas doesn't represent it. Their ideology is religious, not nationalist. He's already converted away from Islam.

Psycho Milt said...

Who is his own people? Does he even see himself as having a country in the sense we would understand it?

These questions are simply bizarre.

Even if the answer is yes, Hamas doesn't represent it. Their ideology is religious, not nationalist. He's already converted away from Islam.

Irrelevant. There are a lot of Palestinians who don't like Hamas and take a stand against terrorism - such things obviously don't make them traitors. I've explained what does make a traitor and why this guy fits the bill - any counter-argument?

KG: you're a complete stranger to reason on this subject and have nothing to offer on it that isn't ridiculous, so there's not really much point in responding.

Peter said...

I don't think they are bizarre. Nationalism hasn't been around all that long. I've never been to Gaza so I may be completely wrong but I don't get the impression that they see themselves as a distinct nation in the sense that France or Germany does.

Yes he did go further than simply speak out against terrorism, he helped the supposed "enemy" to catch and imprison or kill terrorists. Hamas would call him a traitor for that but why should we agree with them?
There are worse actions than occupying another country, terrorism is one of them. I don't think Hamas are patriots in any case. They don't love their people, as they say themselves they love death.

Anonymous said...

Milt if you have nothing good to say say nothing at all. The point of the story is that he helped prevent many suicide bombers killing people.
Are you a supporter of suicide bombers? Unless you are then you should be happy the guy did what he did even though we all know how much you dislike jews and anything to do with Israel.

Put it in a NZ context. If a nutty environmental/seperatitst guy had an attack of conscience and told the cops about what the Eurewera nutters were planning and the subsequent arrests prevented(allegedly) murders and bombings would you call them a quisling, or traitor? Sometimes there are more important things in life than satisfying your pathetic prejudices Milt.

Jimmie

Dex said...

Psycho Milt has a valid point and swaping one brutal ideology for another hardly a hero makes.

Both sides are as bad as each other.

Psycho Milt said...

Yes he did go further than simply speak out against terrorism, he helped the supposed "enemy" to catch and imprison or kill terrorists. Hamas would call him a traitor for that but why should we agree with them?

You're still not addressing the facts that make him a traitor. If we leave out the romanticism, he's a man who helped the security intelligence services of the occupiers of his country in their actions against the people opposing that occupation. In some cases, he helped imprison or kill people who were undoubtedly deserving of it. In other cases, he helped imprison or kill people who were quite legitimately opposing the occupation of their country. How is he not a traitor?

The point of the story is that he helped prevent many suicide bombers killing people.

That is the point that the people using his story for propaganda purposes would like us to take from it, yes. However, it involves ignoring the more significant points that he is a traitor to his country responsible for the deaths of an unkown number of his countrymen at the hands of their enemies.

Put it in a NZ context.

Alright. Somehow NZ ends up occupied by a foreign power, which begins colonising it. Some of the groups opposing the occupation adopt terrorist tactics. Should you join the occupation forces against your own countrymen, knowing that as well as helping them kill or imprison the people backing terrorism, you will be required to help them kill or imprison legitimate opponents of the occupation, and that your success will be measured by how successful their occupation and colonisation of your country proves in the long term? We all make our own decisions, but if you make that one you're a traitor to NZ and your fellow NZers will quite justifiably seek to kill you.

...we all know how much you dislike jews and anything to do with Israel.

They killed our Lord, you know! In my experience, the people given to declaring me a hater of Jews usually feature a pathological hatred of Muslims themselves.

Peter said...

He's a man who helped the security intelligence services of the occupiers of his country in their actions against the people opposing that occupation.

As long as their main means of opposition consists of blowing up women and children, and launching rockets from schools and residential compounds - with the deliberate intention of getting their own civilians killed - then they deserve to be occupied.

In other cases, he helped imprison or kill people who were quite legitimately opposing the occupation of their country

Do you have evidence of this?

Psycho Milt said...

If their response to occupation is a bad one (having found through experience that no good responses are effective), they deserve occupation? That makes so much sense...

Do you have evidence of this?

We definitely have no evidence that this gentleman's experience has been different in some way from that of every other traitorous asset in the history of security intelligence services. Is there a suggestion that he is different in some way? Perhaps in this one shining historical instance, the security intelligence service involved decided that the turned asset could choose for himself what he was willing to be involved in?

Bottom line: we're looking here at a man who's declared himself willing to put on the uniform of his people's oppressor and fight on their side. A death sentence is, as sagenz points out, unsurprising.

Peter said...

If their response to occupation is a bad one (having found through experience that no good responses are effective), they deserve occupation? That makes so much sense...

The occupation is to protect Israeli citizens against terrorism from Gaza. Israel can't responsibly do anything else. Yes, as long as Hamas and its supporters continue what they are doing the occupation is justified and deserved.

We definitely have no evidence that this gentleman's experience has been different in some way from that of every other traitorous asset in the history of security intelligence services.

In other words you have only baseless speculation.


Is there a suggestion that he is different in some way? Perhaps in this one shining historical instance, the security intelligence service involved decided that the turned asset could choose for himself what he was willing to be involved in?


I would say he chose to be involved in thwarting terrorism.


Bottom line: we're looking here at a man who's declared himself willing to put on the uniform of his people's oppressor and fight on their side.


That shows how awful Hamas is, that his convictions led him to do that.

Psycho Milt said...

The occupation is to protect Israeli citizens against terrorism from Gaza.

The occupying power has its own version of events in which it's the good guy? How unusual. You might want to take a look at how long the Palestinian territories have been occupied cf how long Hamas has been in existence.

In other words you have only baseless speculation.

The view that his activities have been completely unlike any other turned asset in history is baseless speculation. The only suggestion that he is in some sense unusual comes from the very people who've been using him as an asset and are now using him as a propaganda tool. I hate to tell you this, but those coins under your pillow when you were a kid weren't really left by a tooth fairy.

I would say he chose to be involved in thwarting terrorism.

You would say that, yes. However, his success is measured by the success of the occupiers in furthering their occupation and colonisation of his people's country. You still haven't come up with any sense in which this doesn't make him a traitor.

That shows how awful Hamas is, that his convictions led him to do that.

Likewise, the fact that some Russians fought for the Wehrmacht against the Red Army shows how awful Stalin was. Didn't help them any once the war was over.

Anonymous said...

Traitors, Hah, we've got our own, a bloke called David Resnick.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/israeli-spy-case/news/article.cfm?c_id=606&objectid=3596863&pnum=2

Peter said...

The occupying power has its own version of events in which it's the good guy? How unusual.

You can choose to believe that Hamas are the good guys. Or that they are both "equally bad". The Palestinians can make peace with Israel if they want to. Even now it would probably still be possible for them to negotiate more land for peace, and try to create a future for their people. They have had every opportunity to do that and they never take it.
The one thing they do want, more than they want a future, is for Israel to disappear. And Israel will do whatever it has to to protect itself.

Psycho Milt said...

There are indeed no good guys in this conflict, simply two groups of bad guys. The bloke under discussion has switched from one to the other and gets to live with the consequences. No skin off my nose but I'm not seeing him as some kind of hero for it.

The rest of your comment is rehashed propaganda.